Ferrari Power Unit Hardware & Software

[AJI]

...The drivers use both feet for each respective pedal. I'd expect there to be some overlap between acceleration and braking events. The software should be able to deal with this. Maybe it was a specific map/mode he was in that had issues with it.

Do you remember the race when Rosberg had a huge problems with electronics (possibly Singapore 2014 or 15? My memory isn't that great...) The engineers told him (broadcast on-air) that the brake pedal input would override and cancel the throttle input. I thought it was odd at the time because you effectively can't trail brake..? I assumed that ERS has changed the philosophy on trail braking? This is the first time I've seen it brought up since...

[munudeges]

AMuS:

The phenomenon also occurs mainly in qualifying, after the start or re-starts and in other crucial stages of the race. This pattern has already been observed at the Red Bull Ring and at SilverstoneMcLaren Senna in the driving report . And there is no explanation for this until today. Only guesswork.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ro-benzin/

What interests me is the first curve in the graph they have on there, apparently under deceleration. Ferrari is a massive outlier - although that graph is quite unclear in places.

[turbof1]

There are only two ERS components that what goes in and out of them is limitted and that is why they are the only two components that what goes in and out of them is measure by an approved FIA measuring sensor and the sensor being positined in an aproved FIA location on the particular element. the other ERS elements that what goes in and out of the is unlimitted nothing needs be measured. any attempt to bypass any of those measurement (sensors) and it will certainly be on the wrong side of the rules.

SS, the ES<->MGUK is limited, the ES<->MGUH is not and the MGUK<->MGUH is not. So, they are routing the MGUK through the MGUH to the ES to bypass the limit. This is legal. We have documents showing Honda did this last year.

Mercedes know this as do the other PU manufacturers. What's interesting is that the other manufacturers are currently dumbfounded as to what Ferrari is doing to achieve their straight line performance.

As I said only those ERS components that what goes in and out of them is limitted have measuring sensors to measure what goes in and out of them.

Saviour Stivala, we have been through this. Your unacceptance of the matter is holding up the discussion. It doesn't matter if there is 0, 1 or 1,000,000 sensors in place. If there's no regulatory base that limits energy flow, it is not limited. Only if a rule clearly states "this specifically is limited to ...J" it is limited.

So, they are routing the MGUK through the MGUH to the ES to bypass the limitThis is legal. We have documents showing Honda did this last year.

Someone please post the documents here so we have black 'n white proof this is a legal avenue. I myself assumed this avenue would have been closed off by a technical directive, but that's shattered on the base that Honda pulled it off.

[Oehrly]

I wonder if there is a way to utilize engine ancillaries for power gain since they are unlimited in energy draw from the ES.

I already thought about that too. My idea was something like an overpowered oilpump and some sort of hydraulic motor in the mgu-k or something like that. (Not that obvious in execution of course )

But from my understanding of the regulations it is not possible to get a (meaningful) poweradvantage through engine ancillaries.

5.13.1 All coolant pumps, oil pumps, scavenge pumps, oil/air separators, hydraulic pumps and fuel pumps delivering more than 10bar must be mechanically driven directly from the engine and/or MGU-K with a fixed speed ratio.

So it looks like any pump that is sort of powerful has to be driven mechanically through the engine. And apart from something to do with pumps i don't know which ancillaries could give a power advantage.

I know that the "Other Ancillaries" can draw (only draw) unlimited energy from the ES. But what are these "Other Ancillaries"? What can/could they do?


But staying with my idea of oil pumps/motors, could one spin the MGU-H through Oil pressure? This could enable unlimitted (in terms of energy) energy recovery through engine breaking as the engine crank is connected to the oil pump. Any Ideas on that? I could not find anything in the regs that would prohibit something like that.

[dren]

Someone please post the documents here so we have black 'n white proof this is a legal avenue. I myself assumed this avenue would have been closed off by a technical directive, but that's shattered on the base that Honda pulled it off.

Extra Harvest mode

[turbof1]

So it is possible as long as the energy is actually spend on the mgu-h, which in turn will regenerate the energy (through burning fuel). That opens up a lot of possibilities regarding what is happening with Ferrari's current power unit.

I believe there is no actual energy harvest limit on the mgu-k? Limits are 50,000rpm and 200nm torque.

[AJI]

So it is possible as long as the energy is actually spend on the mgu-h, which in turn will regenerate the energy. That opens up a lot of possibilities regarding what is happening with Ferrari's current power unit.

I believe there is no actual energy harvest limit on the mgu-k?

Direct K to the ES there is. Via the H there isn't, if that's what you mean?

[turbof1]

So it is possible as long as the energy is actually spend on the mgu-h, which in turn will regenerate the energy. That opens up a lot of possibilities regarding what is happening with Ferrari's current power unit.

I believe there is no actual energy harvest limit on the mgu-k?

Direct K to the ES there is. Via the H there isn't, if that's what you mean?

Kind of. Of course the energy has to go somewhere. But there's no actual rule saying "MGU-K can only generate 2MJ each lap". As long as you can get the energy stored or used away in a legal way, you can generate 4/8/16/...MJ for all they care. Hypothetically and simplified of course.

I also assume these are qualifying modes as you'll be spending fuel a lot.

[AJI]

So it is possible as long as the energy is actually spend on the mgu-h, which in turn will regenerate the energy. That opens up a lot of possibilities regarding what is happening with Ferrari's current power unit.

I believe there is no actual energy harvest limit on the mgu-k?

Direct K to the ES there is. Via the H there isn't, if that's what you mean?

Kind of. Of course the energy has to go somewhere. But there's no actual rule saying "MGU-K can only generate 2MJ each lap". As long as you can get the energy stored or used away in a legal way, you can generate 4/8/16/...MJ for all they care. Hypothetically and simplified of course.

I also assume this are qualifying modes as you'll be spending fuel a lot.

Ahh, but the ES SoC can't vary by more than 4MJ any time the car is on track, so, it's a delicate balancing act of recovering exactly 4MJ per lap (to the ES), deploying exactly 4MJ per lap (from the ES to anywhere) and sending any excess to the K and H.

[turbof1]

Direct K to the ES there is. Via the H there isn't, if that's what you mean?

Kind of. Of course the energy has to go somewhere. But there's no actual rule saying "MGU-K can only generate 2MJ each lap". As long as you can get the energy stored or used away in a legal way, you can generate 4/8/16/...MJ for all they care. Hypothetically and simplified of course.

I also assume this are qualifying modes as you'll be spending fuel a lot.

Ahh, but the ES SoC can't vary by more than 4MJ any time the car is on track, so, it's a delicate balancing act of recovering exactly 4MJ per lap (to the ES), deploying exactly 4MJ per lap (from the ES to anywhere) and sending any excess to the K and H.

Yes, hence why I said hypothetical. I'm sure the other limitations, like the 50,000rpm limit and 200nm torque limit for the mgu-k, as well as other limitations in the chain, make it even more complex and difficult. I'm also sure manufacturers are trying to maximize this equation year by year. Ferrari could have found a way perhaps to get rid of one of the limitations in the equation through a legal way.

[PhillipM]

Any excess beyond the 4MJ you can store by overspinning the MGU-H and using it as flywheel storage.

[turbof1]

Any excess beyond the 4MJ you can store by overspinning the MGU-H and using it as flywheel storage.

mgu-h rpm is limited at 125,000rpm. I'm not good with gearing (if allowed) or how much energy that it can store that way, but definitely a limit in that regard. Still, it's another way of ascending beyond what's just on the flow chart.

[PhillipM]

There's no maximum weight, if you want to store more you just make the unit a kilo or two heavier.

[turbof1]

There's no maximum weight, if you want to store more you just make the unit a kilo or two heavier.

Ok, now we are generating decent discussion!

[saviour stivala]

When the decision was made to replace KERS with ERS a second MGU was added to the system, this MGU was intended to harvest exhaust gasses energy. MGU-H for heat. It was also intended to control the turbocharger and eliminate turbo lag. As such by controlling the turbocharger technically speaking both turbocharger pop-up valve and waste gate/s were not strictly speaking needed, but even so if something goes wrong with the MGU-H it can be decoupled/de-clutched from the turbocharger shaft the turbo would still be running, so for safety requirements, and not for control, waste gates found themselves back into the system. The result of having to retain waste gates for safety reasons (and not for control of turbocharger) was the added running mode technically termed “free load mode” later on being called qualifying mode, and still later on being called party mode. This mode was part of the design of the hybrid power unit, when used this mode produces the maximum power output possible from the power unit. In this mode the ICE is at maximum fueling allowed, the turbocharger is in electric supercharger mode, with waste gates opened and exhaust gases bypassing the turbine scroll (no back pressure), the MGU-H and MGU-K are both sharing ES power. Producing the maximum power possible produces the maximum stresses possible, it also consumes the maximum fuel possible, it also drains ES charge in the fastest time possible. So unless the needed reliability, fuel consumption and ES charging necessities could be meet this mode could only be used the least possible. Any advances in the free load mode necessities was always going to make a big difference. Just notice qualifying, there is very little difference between Mercedes and FERRARI, the two who have the best free load mode, but now that FERRARI are using free load mode in race trim notice how big the difference is.