2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

[SmallSoldier]

Data you are asking for Data but bringing unfounded stuff yourself, show us data that Honda is slower or on pair with Renault .....

you do exactly the same in other topics don't you?
viewtopic.php?p=822348#p822348

With such an awesome crystal ball... Why are you wasting your time here? You should be buying lottery tickets or making billions in the stock market!

It’s one qualifying session in a non-representative circuit with a midfield very close to each other and you are already concluding that this year is a waste for the team? That’s been clueless


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so get off that high horse of yours
and by experts i mean ppl that really know what is going on in the paddock, not us, keyboard warriors here on a forum.
sorry but this (you) can't be taken seriously, at least for now

You do see the difference, don’t you? Go look in this post and tell me where I am making an assessment on the rest of the season for RBH? No where... I stated the facts... The facts are that the team (Marko) said that they expected to be second best, that they build the best car they have ever build and that the Honda PU is better than the Renault PU and that they were rushing their planned upgrade for China to Melbourne because it will give them extra boost they needed. That’s the premise...

I argue that based on the data from Qualifying in Melbourne, that the RBH team isn’t the second best in the grid (they are still the 3rd team), that after going from Renault to Honda, they haven’t made as big of an improvement in lap time compared to the rest of the field (actually, they have made the second smallest increase of the whole grid, only better than Williams which went backwards) while the rest of the grid have improved more versus previous years... That based on the qualifying times, they are farther from the top (Mercedes and Ferraris) than they were at the same point in time last year and closer to the midfield for the same race... Those are “Facts”, based on “Data”... Not hearsay, not an opinion, not a “feeling”.

Does that implies that they won’t evolve and develop through the season? Not at all... Does that mean that both their chassis and the Honda engine won’t improve? Not at all... You and I agreed that in order to really understand where they are, 3 or 5 races need to be raced... But that doesn’t change the facts as of today.

In the other topic, they are writing off a whole season based on one point of data (which I’m not doing).

I was hoping that an intelligent discussion could be had, it seems that it won’t be possible if you resort to using things that “the people that know” have said, without been able to say Who are those people or using any data analysis to support any of your claims.


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[Capharol]

The big improvement IS that they are still 3rd on the grid even AFTER a change of manufacturer, what isn't there to understand?
Renault is still 1.2 sec behind on RB, (proven by qualifying)

I really don't get it what your mission is in this topic, you asked for data, i provided you that, you ask for prove, i gave you that.

And basing the progress of a team by comparing with last year, with other wings, with an other engine is just bullocks
just stop with these comparisons...... they are useless , okay not completly but nonetheless the situation is completly a different one.....

and if you recall and wanna compare, Ferrari was at the same gap as last year but after Australia they ran over Mercedes, Red Bull closed the gap to 0,2 WITHOUT "Party Mode" at the Bahrain GP, that is proven already

it seems you are just in your little world and don't see what others write ..... AT ALL

and where are your facts.... i don't see them, you write alot but haven't proven anything besides proving that teams doing better or worse by comparing with old Data, with old wings (setup), with different kind of tyre, with different kind of engine...... wow that are alot of differents

I honestly believe if they would put a Honda engine into the RB14 and compare it with Renault engine in the same car at the last race of the season ..... i am confident the Honda engine is the better one.

but you won't say i am right, so lets agree to disagree TOTALLY and both go our marry way here, because i won't react to any of your posts anymore

[Sieper]

I think that the smallest improvement by RBR actually validifies Verstappen’s remarks that they were not able to find the ideal setiings. Yet.

[SmallSoldier]

The big improvement IS that they are still 3rd on the grid even AFTER a change of manufacturer, what isn't there to understand?
Renault is still 1.2 sec behind on RB, (proven by qualifying)

So, according to you they have a better engine than they did last year and the improvement is to remain in the same position they were last year?... I’ll bite on the comparison with Renault, last year the gap between RBH and Renault was 1.69 seconds, this year the gap is 1.24 seconds... Did RBH improved with the new engine? Or did Renault simply improved more than what RBH improved with the new engine? The lap times indicate that Renault is closer to RBH this year.

I really don't get it what your mission is in this topic, you asked for data, i provided you that, you ask for prove, i gave you that.

You provided “Data”? That’s funny... The only thing you have provided (aside from the gap between Renault and RBH above is “The Experts Say”, “The People That Know Say”... That’s not Data unluckily... And if they didn’t provided either, it is just an opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

And basing the progress of a team by comparing with last year, with other wings, with an other engine is just bullocks
just stop with these comparisons...... they are useless , okay not completly but nonetheless the situation is completly a different one.....

And what else can we use for comparison? To compare, you have to have a baseline... And the only available one is what the teams did last year... You are saying that they have improved, I’m showing you and demonstrating to you that they haven’t improved as much as other teams in the grid... Those are the facts... Better said, they did a lousier job than the rest? Is that better? Because everyone with the exception of Williams has improved more compared to last year.

and if you recall and wanna compare, Ferrari was at the same gap as last year but after Australia they ran over Mercedes, Red Bull closed the gap to 0,2 WITHOUT "Party Mode" at the Bahrain GP, that is proven already

So now they have party mode and are farther away? That doesn’t sound like a huge improvement, right?... Really looking forward to the next few races, Bahrain should be an interesting one!

and where are your facts.... i don't see them, you write alot but haven't proven anything besides proving that teams doing better or worse by comparing with old Data, with old wings (setup), with different kind of tyre, with different kind of engine...... wow that are alot of differents

I honestly believe if they would put a Honda engine into the RB14 and compare it with Renault engine in the same car at the last race of the season ..... i am confident the Honda engine is the better one.

It is clear that you will believe what you want to believe, but saying that I haven’t provide facts and data is poor on your behalf... You are saying that we can’t use benchmarks to analyze performance? Guess what, that’s how every single KPI is measured... For you to measure “improvement”, you need to have a baseline... And the baseline for Melbourne 2019 is Melbourne 2020... Or are you trying to compare it to a non-existent or alternate universe where RBH run the Honda engine in last year’s car? That’s laughable.

but you won't say i am right, so lets agree to disagree TOTALLY and both go our marry way here, because i won't react to any of your posts anymore

Up to you if you want to continue the discussion or not... That’s kind of the point of been in a forum like this one, not to perpetuate fallacies with similar minded people.



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[Sayeman]

Are you salty that RB dropped Renault for Honda? you sound like it.
Given Renaults poor quali today I would focus on my own team rather than trying to stir things up in some other team's forum if I were a Renault fan.

[munudeges]

Do you mean that Redbull build a chassis can go as fast as mercedes at Melbourne qualification but failed because of Honda?

This is very much an engine limited formula, and when you have an engine that compromises you you compromise the chassis. Red Bull are at least in a similar position as they were with Renault, which is really as good as they could have hoped right now. Now the real work starts as they try and get closer, which they really never could have with Renault.

[munudeges]

I think we can safely say that the Honda honeymoon period and love-in will be over soon, if it isn't already. They're roughly where they were with Renault really, but at least they have a manufacturer with resources that's only focusing on them.

You wish.
They always said the Honda PU is behind Merc and Ferrari and the aim is to catch up in the year. They said they will try to make the difference with their chassis.

I don't wish anything. Red Bull wants to win, and their patience is not limitless. They will be driving Honda hard. Adrian Newey might look like a softly spoken, mild mannered man. He isn't.

[SmallSoldier]

Are you salty that RB dropped Renault for Honda? you sound like it.
Given Renaults poor quali today I would focus on my own team rather than trying to stir things up in some other team's forum if I were a Renault fan.

Not at all! As a matter of fact I’m participating in many team’s forums... I didn’t realize that this is a topic to discuss the RBH and it’s performance, not that it was only for RBH fans... If that’s the case, I apologize.

And I’m not trying to stir anything up... There a lot of statements made that are not accurate and I find it interesting to understand what they are basing them on... Didn’t think that a healthy debate or a respectful discussion wasn’t allowed.

And you are implying that I am a Renault fan, I’m not... I’m not defending Renault or bashing Honda... I am challenging the baseless statements that say that the Honda PU is more powerful than the Renault one.


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[Bill]

Redbull spend close to half a billion on their f1 project, they wouldn't risk all of that if Honda wasn't up to snuf logic tells you Honda pu is better than Renault in many respect. They had the opportunity to stay with Renault Cyril was literally begging them to keep their pu .Renault are still having small gremlins with their pu

[SmallSoldier]

Redbull spend close to half a billion on their f1 project, they wouldn't risk all of that if Honda wasn't up to snuf logic tells you Honda pu is better than Renault in many respect. They had the opportunity to stay with Renault Cyril was literally begging them to keep their pu .Renault are still having small gremlins with their pu

I don’t agree that logic is that Honda is (at this moment) better than the Renault PU... They have taken a risk going for Honda and it makes sense, they had a broken relationship with Renault way before last year (wasn’t it 2016 when Marko started saying that if no other PU manufacturers entered F1 they would leave?).

Simply put, RBH didn’t want to work with Renault anymore and unable to get a Mercedes or Ferrari engine (they were already denied that already, remember?) the only option was Honda, so no, they didn’t move to Honda based on Honda’s current power, but more because it was their only option moving forward.

Could it prove to be a great move? I believe it does... Beyond the power / reliability part of the equation, they are getting what Mclaren wanted back in 2015... An engine manufacturer that cater to their needs and that will work with their philosophy... In that respect, Honda is a great partner for them.

I’m sure Honda will be great... The question used to be if they could get it right and they have finally have done so, I believe we could all agree that Honda is there with Renault, which is more powerful is the most powerful of the two? I don’t think anyone really knows and since all everyone can do is “estimate” the power of each, it can go either way depending on the calculations and margins of error... Actually, speed traps in both Barcelona testing and in Melbourne seem to indicate that there is an small convergence of the PU’s this year, with probably the Mercedes and Ferrari still with a little edge in regards to qualifying... But on race pace, they all seem to be pretty close and in single digit percentages from each other.

The real test will be reliability during the season and we won’t know about that for a few months.


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[Webber2011]

Data you are asking for Data but bringing unfounded stuff yourself, show us data that Honda is slower or on pair with Renault .....

you do exactly the same in other topics don't you?
viewtopic.php?p=822348#p822348

With such an awesome crystal ball... Why are you wasting your time here? You should be buying lottery tickets or making billions in the stock market!

It’s one qualifying session in a non-representative circuit with a midfield very close to each other and you are already concluding that this year is a waste for the team? That’s been clueless


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so get off that high horse of yours
and by experts i mean ppl that really know what is going on in the paddock, not us, keyboard warriors here on a forum.
sorry but this (you) can't be taken seriously, at least for now

You do see the difference, don’t you? Go look in this post and tell me where I am making an assessment on the rest of the season for RBH? No where... I stated the facts... The facts are that the team (Marko) said that they expected to be second best, that they build the best car they have ever build and that the Honda PU is better than the Renault PU and that they were rushing their planned upgrade for China to Melbourne because it will give them extra boost they needed. That’s the premise...

I argue that based on the data from Qualifying in Melbourne, that the RBH team isn’t the second best in the grid (they are still the 3rd team), that after going from Renault to Honda, they haven’t made as big of an improvement in lap time compared to the rest of the field (actually, they have made the second smallest increase of the whole grid, only better than Williams which went backwards) while the rest of the grid have improved more versus previous years... That based on the qualifying times, they are farther from the top (Mercedes and Ferraris) than they were at the same point in time last year and closer to the midfield for the same race... Those are “Facts”, based on “Data”... Not hearsay, not an opinion, not a “feeling”.

Does that implies that they won’t evolve and develop through the season? Not at all... Does that mean that both their chassis and the Honda engine won’t improve? Not at all... You and I agreed that in order to really understand where they are, 3 or 5 races need to be raced... But that doesn’t change the facts as of today.

In the other topic, they are writing off a whole season based on one point of data (which I’m not doing).

I was hoping that an intelligent discussion could be had, it seems that it won’t be possible if you resort to using things that “the people that know” have said, without been able to say Who are those people or using any data analysis to support any of your claims.


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For god's sake man, just kick back, relax and ffs shut up and listen to others for a change.

You're poluting multiple threads with your so called "opinion", but it's seriously wearing out now.
Go have a bex and a good lay down

[SmallSoldier]

Data you are asking for Data but bringing unfounded stuff yourself, show us data that Honda is slower or on pair with Renault .....

you do exactly the same in other topics don't you?
viewtopic.php?p=822348#p822348

so get off that high horse of yours
and by experts i mean ppl that really know what is going on in the paddock, not us, keyboard warriors here on a forum.
sorry but this (you) can't be taken seriously, at least for now

You do see the difference, don’t you? Go look in this post and tell me where I am making an assessment on the rest of the season for RBH? No where... I stated the facts... The facts are that the team (Marko) said that they expected to be second best, that they build the best car they have ever build and that the Honda PU is better than the Renault PU and that they were rushing their planned upgrade for China to Melbourne because it will give them extra boost they needed. That’s the premise...

I argue that based on the data from Qualifying in Melbourne, that the RBH team isn’t the second best in the grid (they are still the 3rd team), that after going from Renault to Honda, they haven’t made as big of an improvement in lap time compared to the rest of the field (actually, they have made the second smallest increase of the whole grid, only better than Williams which went backwards) while the rest of the grid have improved more versus previous years... That based on the qualifying times, they are farther from the top (Mercedes and Ferraris) than they were at the same point in time last year and closer to the midfield for the same race... Those are “Facts”, based on “Data”... Not hearsay, not an opinion, not a “feeling”.

Does that implies that they won’t evolve and develop through the season? Not at all... Does that mean that both their chassis and the Honda engine won’t improve? Not at all... You and I agreed that in order to really understand where they are, 3 or 5 races need to be raced... But that doesn’t change the facts as of today.

In the other topic, they are writing off a whole season based on one point of data (which I’m not doing).

I was hoping that an intelligent discussion could be had, it seems that it won’t be possible if you resort to using things that “the people that know” have said, without been able to say Who are those people or using any data analysis to support any of your claims.


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For god's sake man, just kick back, relax and ffs shut up and listen to others for a change.

You're poluting multiple threads with your so called "opinion", but it's seriously wearing out now.
Go have a bex and a good lay down

Why? Polluting? Easy fix, don’t read what I am writing...


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[Webber2011]

You do see the difference, don’t you? Go look in this post and tell me where I am making an assessment on the rest of the season for RBH? No where... I stated the facts... The facts are that the team (Marko) said that they expected to be second best, that they build the best car they have ever build and that the Honda PU is better than the Renault PU and that they were rushing their planned upgrade for China to Melbourne because it will give them extra boost they needed. That’s the premise...

I argue that based on the data from Qualifying in Melbourne, that the RBH team isn’t the second best in the grid (they are still the 3rd team), that after going from Renault to Honda, they haven’t made as big of an improvement in lap time compared to the rest of the field (actually, they have made the second smallest increase of the whole grid, only better than Williams which went backwards) while the rest of the grid have improved more versus previous years... That based on the qualifying times, they are farther from the top (Mercedes and Ferraris) than they were at the same point in time last year and closer to the midfield for the same race... Those are “Facts”, based on “Data”... Not hearsay, not an opinion, not a “feeling”.

Does that implies that they won’t evolve and develop through the season? Not at all... Does that mean that both their chassis and the Honda engine won’t improve? Not at all... You and I agreed that in order to really understand where they are, 3 or 5 races need to be raced... But that doesn’t change the facts as of today.

In the other topic, they are writing off a whole season based on one point of data (which I’m not doing).

I was hoping that an intelligent discussion could be had, it seems that it won’t be possible if you resort to using things that “the people that know” have said, without been able to say Who are those people or using any data analysis to support any of your claims.


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For god's sake man, just kick back, relax and ffs shut up and listen to others for a change.

You're poluting multiple threads with your so called "opinion", but it's seriously wearing out now.
Go have a bex and a good lay down

Why? Polluting? Easy fix, don’t read what I am writing...


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Pollution is basically another word for garbage.

Yes, I could put you on my ban list, but I was kinda hoping you were more intelligent than that and might take a back step and listen for a change.

Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true, it just shows a lack of ability to learn from others.

You're the Williams of this forum afaik

[SmallSoldier]

For god's sake man, just kick back, relax and ffs shut up and listen to others for a change.

You're poluting multiple threads with your so called "opinion", but it's seriously wearing out now.
Go have a bex and a good lay down

Why? Polluting? Easy fix, don’t read what I am writing...


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Pollution is basically another word for garbage.

Yes, I could put you on my ban list, but I was kinda hoping you were more intelligent than that and might take a back step and listen for a change.

Saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true, it just shows a lack of ability to learn from others.

You're the Williams of this forum afaik

Listen to what exactly? Don’t mind that... But when the statements simply are “I believe”, “I have a feeling” or the likes, hard to learn anything from that... Probably you may try your own advice and read without fanboism what is been written and learn something also... If I repeat it more than once, might be because it’s clear that it isn’t understood and making sure that it isn’t because I didn’t expressed myself correctly... But I can ensure, I’m reading what is been said and trying to understand where the statements are coming from, unluckily no objective information is been provided so far.

And that’s a funny one the Williams bit... Congratulations!


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[ispano6]

I think we can safely say that the Honda honeymoon period and love-in will be over soon, if it isn't already. They're roughly where they were with Renault really, but at least they have a manufacturer with resources that's only focusing on them.

You wish.
They always said the Honda PU is behind Merc and Ferrari and the aim is to catch up in the year. They said they will try to make the difference with their chassis.

I don't wish anything. Red Bull wants to win, and their patience is not limitless. They will be driving Honda hard. Adrian Newey might look like a softly spoken, mild mannered man. He isn't.

But you said the honeymoon is over based on nothing, for which you lost credibility and raise eyebrows...