2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

[Wouter]

yeah well that could be but these are the only 3 newspapers that report about it and they are dutch and 2 out of 3 copied it from the 1st one, which still isn't the biggest source about F1.
I doubt highly that they bring an PU with more power to AZE, but lets wait and see

GPBlog draws the wrong conclusions again as usual! Bad, unreliable site.
Helmut Marko told this to the press. The news is from De Telegraaf:

"Helmut Marko rubs his hands: Twenty HP extra from Honda in Baku".
Red Bull team boss Helmut Marko already confirmed in Shanghai that he had received good news from Honda.
Reportedly, the cars from both Red Bull drivers will then get around 20 horsepower, which on average should amount to a profit of two tenths of a second per lap. "

Nowhere is it said that they get a different/new engine. It could very well be that Mobil comes with the long-awaited new fuel, which would deliver 20HP.

[Bill]

If Rbr find 0.3 tenth they could match merc in quali if we assume the don't bring upgrades

[Quantum]

The problem is people assuming after the engine switch, there would be no teething problems. This is kinda like a reset for Red Bull and I think they're doing pretty well, it's unfortunate that their spokesperson instead of being optimistic, but cautious, chose to brag and make all sorts of declarations.
I still believe it's a solid and very impressive start to the partnership, with a large scope for improvement. There"s reason to be positive, Gasly on the other hand.....

The engine switch and integration is not the main problem. They still lack on power, it's evident as the speed traps do show they are among the slowest. Of course Horner and nobody at Redbull is going to blame Honda right now, but Honda still has some catching up to do. Chassis wise, they are no longer the best, but imo are better than Ferrari. Merc has the best chassis this year, there is little question about that.

Have you seen speed trap data from Oz and Bahrain?

[Datco]

For my second claim, I except that saying "issue" to that may not be completely true. But I think it(integration) is not perfect or mature like aero concept and you know they are talking some gains by repacking engine. I think there are somethings they can do or they found out. If it is not big ( hope so) they can fix it/perfect it. If bigger then it perfection will come next year.

You might have a point here. Several people have claimed that the biggest asset of the renault engine was the traction, mainly due to its engine placement, further back than most. Looking back at recent years the RB’ have been optimised around that trait, with aero suspension and gearing. How often have we’ve seen a RB blasting out of a corner to run out of gears at the end of a straight. The last years cars almost looked like they were designed with Singapore in mind.

The Honda engine seems to be a bit different, perhaps forcing RB to rethink their optimization strategy. They now have to design a car around an engine which perhaps is a bit less drivable at the low end but can compete at intermediate and top speeds.

There is no “perfect” package. Just an optimization for some tracks and a compromise for others. I guess RB will need a good part of this year to optimize around a new philosophy.

But that said, I am positively surprised with where they are now.

Honda PU is further back with Turbo at the front. At least that was what STR and McLaren said were challenges that they had to overcome in switching in 2018.

[etusch]

https://twitter.com/natskat/status/1117 ... 30368?s=19

[Marti_EF3]

Race overview

Race pace



Stint 1



Stint 2



Stint 3



Best sectors

[Sieper]

For my second claim, I except that saying "issue" to that may not be completely true. But I think it(integration) is not perfect or mature like aero concept and you know they are talking some gains by repacking engine. I think there are somethings they can do or they found out. If it is not big ( hope so) they can fix it/perfect it. If bigger then it perfection will come next year.

You might have a point here. Several people have claimed that the biggest asset of the renault engine was the traction, mainly due to its engine placement, further back than most. Looking back at recent years the RB’ have been optimised around that trait, with aero suspension and gearing. How often have we’ve seen a RB blasting out of a corner to run out of gears at the end of a straight. The last years cars almost looked like they were designed with Singapore in mind.

The Honda engine seems to be a bit different, perhaps forcing RB to rethink their optimization strategy. They now have to design a car around an engine which perhaps is a bit less drivable at the low end but can compete at intermediate and top speeds.

There is no “perfect” package. Just an optimization for some tracks and a compromise for others. I guess RB will need a good part of this year to optimize around a new philosophy.

But that said, I am positively surprised with where they are now.

Honda PU is further back with Turbo at the front. At least that was what STR and McLaren said were challenges that they had to overcome in switching in 2018.

Honda has the split turbo concept (like Mercedes) Renault has the entire turbo on the back of the engine, like Ferrari). So indeed the whole Honda engine will likely be a bit further back (as part of the turbo is in front of it). Whilst the Renault can possibly be mounted a bit further forward (but then has the weight of the entire turbo on the back). Apparently the entire Honda unit is smaller sized also, so that might still mean things for weight distribution as well.

Interesting discussion!

[NL_Fer]

The Renault was mounted closer to the front, but the turbo was a single unit higher and more at the back.

On average it could be the same cog, but maybe it does change the dynamic behaviour of the (complex) suspension.

[Edax]

The Renault was mounted closer to the front, but the turbo was a single unit higher and more at the back.

On average it could be the same cog, but maybe it does change the dynamic behaviour of the (complex) suspension.

True I think it is more about the weight balance and weight transfer than the COG. But since the engine is about 20% of the dry weight of the car I cannot imagine that such a difference in architecture does not have an impact on certain drivability aspects, such as braking, corner stability and traction.

And while simulation can predict a lot I can imagine that part of it is heading out to the track and see what works and what doesn’t and optimize around that.

[GhostF1]

Something else to think about is that with the Renault design, the turbo was physically inside the gearbox housing, this is no long the case with the Honda, so there would be reliability gains to be had there. The overall unit is moved slightly further back correct, but it is much shorter so they can tuck the bodywork tighter at the rear as there is no turbo/MGU-H unit hanging out the back and the MGU-K is one of the smallest units on the field.

[Hammerfist]

The problem is people assuming after the engine switch, there would be no teething problems. This is kinda like a reset for Red Bull and I think they're doing pretty well, it's unfortunate that their spokesperson instead of being optimistic, but cautious, chose to brag and make all sorts of declarations.
I still believe it's a solid and very impressive start to the partnership, with a large scope for improvement. There"s reason to be positive, Gasly on the other hand.....

The engine switch and integration is not the main problem. They still lack on power, it's evident as the speed traps do show they are among the slowest. Of course Horner and nobody at Redbull is going to blame Honda right now, but Honda still has some catching up to do. Chassis wise, they are no longer the best, but imo are better than Ferrari. Merc has the best chassis this year, there is little question about that.

Have you seen speed trap data from Oz and Bahrain?

Yes. The traps were only high in OZ, but they admittedly didn't run enough downforce there. Then Bahrain and China were low.

[NL_Fer]

Speed traps are worhless. We need the gps acceleration graph, the only way to determine engine power. But we are not allowed to see it.

[Maplesoup]

Speed traps are worhless. We need the gps acceleration graph, the only way to determine engine power. But we are not allowed to see it.

Agreed, speed traps don't mean much at all due to differing levels of downforce and thus drag on the cars. Mercedes are rarely at the top in speed trap figures but isn't doing them any harm.

[Wouter]

Correct, that why i mentioned "rumoured". Although, wherever there's smoke there's fire

yeah well that could be but these are the only 3 newspapers that report about it and they are dutch and 2 out of 3 copied it from the 1st one, which still isn't the biggest source about F1.
I doubt highly that they bring an PU with more power to AZE, but lets wait and see

Max Verstappen confirmed yesterday on TV that Honda is coming with an upgrade of 20 HP in the next race and the car gets a small upgrade. The major upgrade will come later. The Telegraaf (Dutch paper) therefore had the correct information this time.

When asked whether he is more careful at the start this year, he finally says. “No, up to now I have not had very nice starts. We are still searching a bit with the Honda engine to have very good starts, so that could also be better. ”

Whether Red Bull can be competitive with the updates in Azerbaijan, he does not know. "It's hard to say right now. Anyway, this season I think Mercedes is fast, and then again Ferrari, so it's hard to estimate, it's also a question mark for us."

[Bill]

Can this gp acceleration graph give accurate readings if a team like redbull wheel spins and can't put the power down correctly because of poor traction