2019 Canadian Grand Prix - Montreal June 7-9

[cooken]

So I'm really just applauding the mods then

[Just_a_fan]

Agreed, and forgive me if this was already considered or called out:
If Vettel acknowledged the move and ceded position to Hamilton that lap, would the time penalty still be in effect?

I don't think so. The penalty wasn't for gaining an advantage, it was for a "dangerous" rejoin and causing a competitor to have to avoid a collision. If the penalty was for gaining an advantage then giving the place up would have prevented the penalty.

[Restomaniac]

I see Ferrari have dumped the idea of appealing. Probably because they have actually realised that Vettel was banged to rights according to the rules.

[komninosm]

LoL

I guess any discussion with Hamilton fans is pointless

Well yes, if you don't want to take off ferrari red colored glasses of bias and discuss civilly and with limited bias then, yes, discussion is pretty pointless for you.

Can you give me a straight reason why this move was penalty and Monaco 2016 wasn't? IMHO It's EXACTLY the same.



Can you give a reason why Mexico 2016 T1 wasn't a penalty?

And finally why Germany 2018 wasn't a penalty for Hamilton?

If anyone of you Hamilton fans says that he should have received a penalty in Monaco, I will say that Seb got what he deserved. Then we can discuss why do we (maybe) have double standards, or something else.

You've been told several times how Monaco 2016 was different. Ric never had a part of his car along side Ham, Ham left space on the fight, Ric ran over a wet track and lost control on his own.
You just do not want to face facts.

In Mexico, I think you're referring to when he was first and on the first lap he cut a corner and came out first again. Well first of all it wasn't an unsafe re-entry, it was safe obviously. Did he gain an advantage? Sure, but he gave it back instantly (the time advantage he gained) and the number 2-3 was Nico and Ric who also were fighting for position and Ric pushed Nico out of the track and also deserved penalty and Nico cut the track too so they couldn't ask Hamilton to give position to Nico nor Ric.

I don't know about Germany, you'll have to be more specific.
How about Baku though? Why Vettel did not get black flag? FIARRARI?!
How about this race? Why did Vettel push Ham into the wall like that? He could have easily not accelerated so much so fast and left room on the outside. Vettel is dangerous driver. He has pushed people in walls even inside the PITS!?
Even Schumacher apologized to Barrichelo for that. But Vettel is a spoiled child, like many Ferrari fans too.

[komninosm]

I just want to know why Lewis was not penalized in Barcelona 2016 for running into Rosberg if entering a track unsafely is thing

WHat?!
You mean when Rosberg was in the wrong engine mode because of his own fault and pushed Lewis off the track?
Rosberg deserved a penalty there sure.

[komninosm]

Here is the first example I have found, quick search...

A car taking to the grass at turn 3/4. Ricciardo in the Toro Rosso. He jumped across the grass at the last second to avoid a crash, so he didnt plan on going across the grass until the last second (Like Vettel) He then rejoined the track, had no one closing in on him yet still didnt need to use all the track, in a car with far less grip than the current cars. So I cant understand why ex-drivers say Seb had no choice when he clearly did.


http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=286 ... 26c27d0274

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=c38 ... ba17bd7430

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=142 ... b0a634c8a9

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=948 ... 749e079d40

http://pasteall.org/pic/show.php?id=f8f ... c46893b5f5

The car we are onboard with (Kimi) clearly hits the throttle harder and gets more oversteer and drifts wider showing that if you control the throttle better you can easlily control the trajectory of your car. If you listen to the ex-drivers who say Seb had no choice, it sounds like they are saying, if you go across the grass there, you can only avoid a crash by using the full width of the track! but its clear from a 10min search online that those drivers are talking BS.

Exactly it's all BS.
-Oh no Vettel couldn't take the inside line.
-Well maybe if he accelerated a bit less frantically...
-Oh no but then he would have lost first place...

Hypocrites

[NathanOlder]

Btw, a good way to see how dominant a car is is to compare the speed to the next car. It has already been proven that in 2011 mclaren was the faster car. Not RBR. Also that Mercedes is way more dominant than RBR ever was.

The car that took 18 out of 19 pole positions that season was not the fastest car

[Restomaniac]

I just want to know why Lewis was not penalized in Barcelona 2016 for running into Rosberg if entering a track unsafely is thing

WHat?!
You mean when Rosberg was in the wrong engine mode because of his own fault and pushed Lewis off the track?
Rosberg deserved a penalty there sure.

It’s funny but I also saw the comparisons to this incident and Barcelona in 2016 as I have said in this thread. It is very similar in the fact that Hamilton is so quick to weigh up a situation, do nothing wrong and then be painted as the bad guy by some.

In this case he took one look at Vettel and jumped on the clear chance and yet was smart enough to anticipate and react to Vettels actions. Back in Barcelona he saw the sister Mercedes flashing indicating that he was set up wrong and again jumped on the clear chance. What nobody has even been able to explain was why Rosberg was litellry on the wrong side of the track to the racing line. If ever there should have been a penalty for crowding off another car that was it and I imagine it was something that even caught Hamilton out because it was SO insane.

Hamilton is a racer and in both cases saw a chance and jumped on it. Nobody should be lambasting him for it especially when it’s clear in both cases that the driver in front wasn’t letting him past come Hell or high water.

[turbof1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IA3ppfFRq4o

Jolyon should have skipped the F1 career and gone straight to this. Seems to be really well considered and thorough. The overlaid throttle input is rather telling...


Might I also applaud the fact we've gone through all this discussion with essentially no mod intervention or thread locking. Must be pushing a race thread record.

Thanks. When it happened, we swepted through the thread and were quite harsh with warnings. It's not fun being that towards people, and we understand that some emotion will always be involved, but we knew we had to be harsh to keep the discussion civilized. And that did pay off.

Discussions are now going fine, without members blaming eachother of bias, and members staying respectful both towards eachother as towards the drivers. Taking away the option of making it personal forces everybody to outwit eachother intellectually.

[turbof1]

Agreed, and forgive me if this was already considered or called out:
If Vettel acknowledged the move and ceded position to Hamilton that lap, would the time penalty still be in effect?

I don't think so. The penalty wasn't for gaining an advantage, it was for a "dangerous" rejoin and causing a competitor to have to avoid a collision. If the penalty was for gaining an advantage then giving the place up would have prevented the penalty.

They might have taken that as a sort of "informal" penalty, although I do agree that that is a bit of a stretch.

[TAG]

Whatever it's called the effect was the it impeded Hamilton from a very likely overtake. Since everyone seems to like the ideat of the penalty issued being to have Ferrari/Vettel give the position back within a couple of laps so racing can continue. Maybe that's an additional arrow their quiverstewards can be given. I don't think that was an option. Only time adding or driver through penalties may have been available.

[nOracle]

Would there have been this much fuss if Vettel was given a drive through so he'd been passed "on track" instead of crossing the line first to finish second?

[outer_bongolia]

I did some “scientific” research using PS4 and F1 2018. I cut the same chicane as Vettel did and here are the results.

1. First time cutting, no cars around: warning. Repeat it the next lap, 5 sec penalty.
2. Cut with a car following and retain my position. Race engineer came on the radio to tell me I had to give up the position or get a penalty.
3. Did it with Mercedes and Ferrari: same results.
4. Did it with the other car too close. Got hit, spun and destroyed the car on the wall.

[NL_Fer]

Maybe they could think about a penalty lane. They dumped drive-trough because the time lost was to much (20-25s).

[izzy]

Maybe they could think about a penalty lane. They dumped drive-trough because the time lost was to much (20-25s).

Yes, i posted this same thought! A stopping place, same thing really - a penalty that has the cars in actual race order on the track, and if someone deserves to be behind (unsafe release, double move to defend, unsafe rejoining) it puts them behind