UK to end hydrocarbon-fuelled cars in 2040

[Big Tea]

Yeah, I already mentioned that (but used PSI figures ). I think the only big issue is the tank required to hold that sort of pressure. The weight is likely to be more than a simple plastic tank for petrol.

Hydrogen gives about 9MJ/L when compressed to 700 bar compared to petrol/diesel at about 35MJ/L. So some way behind and a big tank would be needed for comparable range. Although Hydrogen gives 140MJ/kg compared to petrol/diesel at about 47MJ/kg. Not sure which is the better figure to use - by weight or by volume. I guess by volume as it's the volume of the tank that will be the limiting factor.

Edit:
5kg of H2 compressed at 700bar requires 125L of tank and gives 500-600km of driving.
https://energies.airliquide.com/resourc ... gen-stored
So a tank perhaps twice the size of a typical petrol car's requirement for that range.

Yeh, sorry I realise now you had posted it. Its an age thing. I really should not be trusted in control of a car

( I must get off a reply to J_A_F too

[Brake Horse Power]

I'd be interested to see some figures for such a carrier system if you are able to share them. Presumably a carrier system uses a catalyst or some other device to separate the hydrogen for use. Obviously the benefit of ammonia is that splitting two ammonia molecules gives only hydrogen and nitrogen (2NH3 -> N2 + 3H2) which is effectively pollution free. Ammonia isn't nice stuff, however, if spilled and inhaled in high concentrations. Formic Acid would split to form hydrogen and carbon dioxide so not so good. One could see the Formic Acid formed from atmospheric CO2 so it would approach carbon neutrality.

Correct, the carrier would require a formic-acid reformer. So in order to get an idea i have extrapolated data from about 8 websites and sources.
Formic Acid can be made with CO2 of processes where CO2 is a by product. For example a digester for cowshit has CO2 as rest product. The cow needs to --- anyway it is not something we can stop. Using this as a basis is in my opinion sufficient to consider the fuel carbon neutral. It also doesn't produce finedust or carbonmonoxide.

- I consider the website of Nikola most reliable considering the weight of the truck
- The range of the trucks is difficult to asses since the starting conditions are unknow or uncomparable.
- Consumption of 2kWh per kilometer is my starting point, since both manufacturers state this as far as I can recall.
- Weight of the battery pack is based on the FAQ answers on the Nikola website, and on some articles about the Tesla battery packs.
- Hydrogen storage on the Nikola is enormous. The Nikola FAQ mentions an energy storage capacity between 2 and 3 MW. This is a bit vague (as the info of all manufacturers) and I don't know if battery capacity is included. I have filled in 3MW of storage, which is 90 kg, which makes the range 900 mile. That is pretty much in line with the website.
- The hydrogen truck I have rebuild to a formic acid truck. Maybe a bit to optimistic here, I should have also placed the weight of the reformers which I believe will be a few hundred kg.
- Diesel truck included for reference

My first conclusions:
- *if* my figures are close to realistic, I am surprised by the small weight penalty of the Tesla. Maybe some more weight is needed as support for the batteries..
- The weight of the Nikola outperforms the Tesla by over 1000 kg (2200 pound) and the range almost doubles
- A formic acid truck would have an almost similar weight as a hydrogen truck, but I suppose the Formic Acid consumes only half the space of hydrogen bottles. Plus the storage and handling of formic acid is cheap.



I did a quick comparison, what if all trucks have a 500 mile range?



I hope you can see the pictures, am I missing the upload button on this forum?

I am curious about your opinions, maybe you have some data to further develop my excel sheet.

[Big Tea]

I know its early days yet, but was reading this. Encouraging

https://www.skeletontech.com

https://www.skeletontech.com/news/press ... power-grid

[Tommy Cookers]

our Committee on Climate Change has just declared that hydrocarbon-only cars should end in 2030 ....
as by 2025 electric cars will be no more costly than other types of cars

makes sense if by then there's a surplus of low-carbon electricity
a surplus after all fossil-fuelled generation and heating has been replaced by low-carbon electricity
so a 3000% increase in low-carbon generation (including 24/7 availability)

which political party will be first to promise this ?
one featuring Ed 'climate change is war' Milliband ?
which one will that be ? (in 2025)

[Just_a_fan]

Hydrocarbon free doesn't mean only EV, though, does it. Hydrogen could be used, although my view is that EV is more likely as hydrogen has issues of its own and would need a full new infrastructure to support it.

[Big Tea]

our Committee on Climate Change has just declared that hydrocarbon-only cars should end in 2030 ....
as by 2025 electric cars will be no more costly than other types of cars

by then presumably there will be a surplus of low-carbon electricity - so no fossil fuelled generation

And hydrocarbon only, sounds like it does not include what we today call hybrid electric? (Which is the way I would go at the moment)

[loner]

BMW, Ford, Honda, and VW strike deal with California on vehicle emissions, bypassing Trump rollback

The new agreement falls short of the Obama-era efficiency requirements, but above the rollback, the Trump administration plans on introducing. The Obama rules would have called for an average annual increase of nearly 5% before reaching 47.6 mpg for all vehicles by 2025. While the Trump rules still haven’t been finalized, the plan was believed to, at most, require a 1% efficiency increase each year until 2026.

This new framework will increase greenhouse gas stringency requirements at an average rate of 3.7% from 2022 to 2026. Of that 3.7%, 1% can be achieved through “advanced technology multiplier credits,” including:

Continue current advanced technology multipliers that now expire after MY 2021, extending them through MY 2024 at the current 2.0x for Battery Electric and Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (BEV/FCEV), and 1.6x for Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEV), tapering off at the current MY 2020 and MY 2021 levels in MY 2025 and MY 2026, respectively.

Other automakers will be allowed to adopt the compromise agreement, thus making the California deal the de facto set of national fuel economy rules. That seems to be the goal, with this agreement ending fears of a “split market.” From the companies’ joint statement:

“These terms will provide our companies much-needed regulatory certainty by allowing us to meet both federal and state requirements with a single national fleet, avoiding a patchwork of regulations while continuing to ensure meaningful greenhouse gas emissions reductions.”

https://electrek.co/2019/07/25/automake ... ions-deal/

[loner]

https://twitter.com/NAR/status/1156614877030559745

[Andres125sx]

Electro-diesel? What´s that?

[Just_a_fan]

Electro-diesel? What´s that?

The trains run as electric trains where overhead lines are in place. In areas where there are no overhead lines, the trains are powered by diesel engines - presumably driving on board generators to make electricity for the drive motors.

[Tommy Cookers]

this is quite usual in the UK
many routes have been electrified over only part of their distance - because of the excessive cost of the electrification
the diesel-electric mode has less power than the cable-supplied mode so the service is then slower and noisier

last week the weather was hot and some of the 25000 Volt overhead cables failed - and set fire to trackside vegetation etc
but nobody died - and the problem seems to be nobody's fault
though presumably placing the cable supports a bit closer could have prevented it


btw there's now widespread action to support UK (and pan-EU of course) generating capacity and reduce carbon emission
(expensive) gas turbine combined cycle now instead of ('cheap') gas turbine open cycle
63% energy-efficient vs 50% energy-efficient
about 3 times as carbon-efficient as coal
and much of this (in the UK anyway) compatible with retrofitting for carbon capture
presumably there will be little increase in wood-fired generation beyond the present level

[Andres125sx]

Thank you both, so basically it´s an hybrid train, same to BMW i3 with range extender

[strad]

Most trains for some time have been diesel-electric powered. These use a diesel engine to power a generator which supplies power for the electric motors that actually drive the train wheels. I'm sure there has been progress but in the past those diesel engines were pretty nasty. Used to drive one at work. It is not new by any means.
.

The hybrid diesel locomotive is an incredible display of power and ingenuity. It combines some great mechanical technology, including a huge, 12-cylinder, two-stroke diesel engine, with some heavy duty electric motors and generators, throwing in a little bit of computer technology for good measure.
This 270,000-pound (122,470-kg) locomotive is designed to tow passenger-train cars at speeds of up to 110 miles per hour (177 kph). The diesel engine makes 3,200 horsepower, and the generator can turn this into almost 4,700 amps of electrical current. The four drive motors use this electricity to generate over 64,000 pounds of thrust. The main reason why diesel locomotives are hybrid is because this eliminates the need for a mechanical transmission, as found in cars. A transmission would be huge (it would have to handle 3,200 horsepower), complicated and inefficient. It would also have to provide power to four sets of wheels, which would add to the complexity.
By going with a hybrid setup, the main diesel engine can run at a constant speed, turning an electrical generator. The generator sends electrical power to a traction motor at each axle, which powers the wheels. The traction motors can produce adequate torque at any speed, from a full stop to 110 mph (177 kph), without needing to change gears.

[Just_a_fan]

Thank you both, so basically it´s an hybrid train, same to BMW i3 with range extender

No. It's two trains in one really. It's new-age electric from overhead wires with old-school diesel-electric from the 60s.

[strad]

seems redundant.??.