McLaren should protest Ferrari team orders

[Michiba]

I have nothing against team racers shuffling to change the outcome whether by Orders or not. But it's in the RULES.. and KIMI ADMITTED TO Doing it. That is as black and white as it gets...

Did you miss some of the points by earlier posters?

I think the points that you missed (as I understand them) are that yes, It is against the rules for team orders to interfere with the result. But did the team order it? Or did Kimi do it of his own free will (from the team) to help his team mate? To use a soccer analogy put forward earlier, Kimi merely passed the ball to a team mate who is in a better position to kick the goal. Leading up to that point in time, no where was the coach in earshot to tell Kimi to pass to Massa.

So I don't think it's as black and white as you suggest.

[The FOZ]

I'm a Ferrari fan, but I do believe that McLaren and Hamilton have been treated unfairly.

Nothing that Ferrari did here today was unfair to McLaren or Lewis Hamilton.

There is a rule against "team orders."

But nothing against team spirit. No orders came from anywhere. Kimi did what he did on his own volition, unless you can prove otherwise, which you can't.

Whether the rule is stupid or not is beside the point--McLaren should demand that it be enforced.

And it is. Next time you hear a team boss ordering one driver to yield position to another, you can bet there will be a sanction handed out.

We all know that Kimi let Massa pass.

Yes, he did.

If the stewards were able to "judge" that Hamilton did not adequately give up his position to Kimi after cutting the chicane in Belgian, then they should also be able to "judge" that Kimi did give up his position to Massa in violation of the rules.

The only reason the stewards were able to do anything with Lewis at Belgium was because there was a specific rule against what he did. As I mentioned above a time or two already, there is no rule against an individual driver giving up position to another on his own volition. In fact, if Fernando Alonso had decided to give up second place to Felipe Massa today, that would have been fine, too.

I don't like protests and especially do not like race results changed by the stewards, but they did overturn Hamilton's win in Belgian, so this protest is only fair. Massa should be put back to third.

Dude...saying the same thing in different ways many times doesn't make the point more valid. And considering McLaren has done this exact thing this season, the point becomes even more moot.

[jddh1]

ahhaahhahahaa.

one of the cleanest races and I came to the forums just to see if anybody had started any garbage talk and sure enough a "fellow ferrari fan" (not sure about that) has started some stupid, hardware spamming, silly thread.

I also agree that the team order rule should be abolished. If a driver brings his own car to the race and his teammate brings his then I'll agree to team orders being illegal.

[The FOZ]

Even then, it's a dumb rule. The teams are the ones who're providing the cars for the drivers. The drivers ARE EMPLOYEES OF THE TEAMS AND ARE BEING PAID AS SUCH. Therefore, however you look at it...THE TEAMS SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO ENFORCE TEAM ORDERS. This is one rule I'm agreeable to have removed.

This is the most reasonable thing I've read so far.

But I'm going to play Devil's advocate for a bit. This is racing, and it follows that the drivers should be racing from start to finish. Baseball has a rule that anyone who makes a mockery of the game during a play is to be ejected upon the completion of that play. Case in point was some Major League guy who hit his xxxth home run, and decided to make it memorable by running the bases backwards. He was penalized with an ejection for making a mockery of the sport.

Suppose Fernando was in second, with Massa in third. Would it be any worse than what happened today if Fernando had given up his spot to Massa? I think yes, because racing would have given way to personal feuds beyond the track. But there isn't a rule about that any more than there is a rule about teammates giving up position to one another.

So you look at it like this...take team orders, which some say is bad for the sport, and you take individuals choosing to roll over and let people pass them, which would be particularly bad if they came from opposing teams, but less bad if they were on the same team.

3 ways of the same thing happening, and they're enforced differently. I think either ban 'em all as they're against the spirit of racing, or ban none of them.

[saam]

Did you guys hear the english commentatiors at the end of the race when the drivers were getting interviewed....

It was nothing but "praise" for hamilton for winning such a race, bla bla bla bla

And for KIMI and MASSA it was, 'so how did team orders take place in massa coming 2nd'

It wouldnt bother me too much if hamilton wins the title, i like him as a driver BUT as long as mclaren dont take the flag as well

Overtaking would have have been put apon ALL other teams and their drivers as well if they were in the same situation, we are talking about it now becasue its happend to the red team

[andartop]

For those moaning about team orders and about how drivers are supposed to race till the end..
Do you remember second drivers giving up their car to their first driver team mate so the first driver would continue the race?
Do you remember second drivers blocking the enemy while racing or even while being lapped?
Do you remember second drivers taking out the enemy?
Do you remember first drivers being ordered to maintain position, to slow down 10 laps before the chequered flag, or having their revs limited to force them slow down?
Do you remember first and second drivers being ordered to finish as they are after the second pit stop?
Have you been following F1 at all over the last 60 years?
Team orders have always been and always be a part of F1, whether allowed or not by any stupid rule.. Some may choose to slow down slightly over 20 laps to allow their team mate to pass them, others may choose to pull the handbrake near the finish line, step out and have a cigarette, others may "need" an extra pit stop 3 laps before the end of the race, and others may claim their brakes have overheated so they had to slow down. In my eyes Rubens and Michael in Austria was not a disgrace for F1, but on the contrary the most honest way to do it, as it made it clear to everyone that Rubens was following Team Orders and proved he would otherwise easily have been in front. If you know it will happen anyway, why would you rather have it stupidly disguised rather than straight forward and clear for all to see? Unless if you are so dumb that you really believe all the excuses they might invent after the race to justify the obvious...

[Shaddock]

The best team orders were when the second driver was ordered into the pits so the teams main driver could hop into their car and carry on after breaking their own machine. I'm sure Moss was leading a GP when this happened to him.

Things have changed since those times.

F1 is a sport but it is also entertainment, so I can see why team orders are banned after Ferrari got very blatant with fixing the outcome. I have no problem with Sunday's manoeuvre as long as it's done with a little subtlety unlike in the past. It’s a team sport so drivers should act in the best interest of the team.

[bizadfar]

So what happened 2 years ago?

Alonso's pace after the 1st stop was rubbish. Both Fisi and MSC caught him and passed him. While Fisi played a little shotgun (no complaints there).

Fisi screwed up and MSC took the lead. Fisi then proceeded to let Alonso pass.

Great race btw.



But when it involves a red car, it's wrong and against the spirit of the sport.
Bunch of wankers.

[Scuderia_Russ]

Pointless thread of the week.

[Belatti]

In some ways - theoretically - I agree. At any point of any race drivers should be racing. An outsider who doesn't grasp the F1 team idea would surely be wondering what is going on and it does make sense that every driver ought to be racing at all times possible - meaning the voluntary relinquishing of any place is an offence.

I think this is the point: F1 is formed by teams. A Rule that a team can not work as a team is plainly stupid. The counterpart is that a team has to had a little bit of ethic, wich was not the case of Ferrari with Shoemaker and Barrichello in that A1-GP.

[casper]

At the post race conference Massa's reply when asked on his passing Raikonnen said that. "It was the best part for me in the race, I was quite strong and then I caught him and I passed him, so that was the good part of the race."

hahahaha, he caught Kimi and he was proud of "it" too.

[axle]

Pointless thread of the week.

I'm not so sure, I think it was WhiteBlue's Williams bashing...

but this is a close 2nd.

HK and LH in Germany = KR and FM in China...same s$$t different day. Only difference was that Massa couldn't catch Kimi without Kimi slowing down.

[vyselegend]

I believe the young people who didn't watch F1 in 2001 are misunderstanding the reason of the rule against team orders. What happened then is that Jean Todt ORDERED (hence the name "team orders") Rubens to "Let Micheal pass", against Rubens' will. To add further crap in the matter, this was in no way a championship decisive race, as it was actually the sixth race of the season, and the swap of position had no effect on Schuey's ranking in WDC.

So it was just spoiling of the race because Ferrari had decided before the season that Rubens was a number two driver who will have to play the b*tch for schuey, and would have no real chances to fight for WDC on his own.

That's why everyone was gutted.

Sunday's events have nothing to do with that matter. As people told already, there's nothing wrong in a team acting as such. Kimi would actually have been a thankless brat had he not conceded position, as he was owing one to Felipe from last year's Brazil race. Indeed every team is doing that, Heidfeld for Kubica in Montreal, Felipe for Kimi in 2007, Fisi for Alonso in China 2006...

F1 is the only motorsport where people believe it is bad to play the team game, all that because of the confusion surrounding what happened in Austria in 2001.

[bizadfar]

I believe the young people who didn't watch F1 in 2001 are misunderstanding the reason of the rule against team orders. What happened then is that Jean Todt ORDERED (hence the name "team orders") Rubens to "Let Micheal pass", against Rubens' will. To add further crap in the matter, this was in no way a championship decisive race, as it was actually the sixth race of the season, and the swap of position had no effect on Schuey's ranking in WDC.

So it was just spoiling of the race because Ferrari had decided before the season that Rubens was a number two driver who will have to play the b*tch for schuey, and would have no real chances to fight for WDC on his own.

That's why everyone was gutted.

Sunday's events have nothing to do with that matter. As people told already, there's nothing wrong in a team acting as such. Kimi would actually have been a thankless brat had he not conceded position, as he was owing one to Felipe from last year's Brazil race. Indeed every team is doing that, Heidfeld for Kubica in Montreal, Felipe for Kimi in 2007, Fisi for Alonso in China 2006...

F1 is the only motorsport where people believe it is bad to play the team game, all that because of the confusion surrounding what happened in Austria in 2001.

2002.

2001 was the turn 1 incident where MSC lit up the car as he got spun round and some accused him of trying to get the race stopped.

One theory for that move in 2002 was to break the record in how soon a driver would win the driver's championship.

I have no strong view on both incidents. Back then I remember I was mostly a Mclaren man.

[DaveKillens]

So far, many valid arguments for and against the use of team orders, blatant or covert.
But I'd like to plead the case for the fans. Yup, those seemingly insignificant blobs who fill the grandstands and mob the winner's podium after the race. Not the teams, or drivers who's wishes obviously and clearly take significant precedence over the needs of the great unwashed fan masses. They are just peasants, who cares about them. Who cares that a fan would give up a year's savings to travel to a race to watch their "hero" be someone else's bitch that day. So let's just say it like it is, who give's a rat's ass for the fans? Who gives a crap whether they actually have a hero, or just admire a face on a cereal box? Screw the fans, and any other idiot who is foolish enough to care, who spends more than they should to go watch a race, go watch a hero give in to the team's wishes.

I have many racing heroes, the top dog of them all NEVER was anybody's bitch. I miss you Dale.