McLaren should protest Ferrari team orders

[donskar]

I'm a Ferrari fan, but I do believe that McLaren and Hamilton have been treated unfairly. There is a rule against "team orders." Whether the rule is stupid or not is beside the point--McLaren should demand that it be enforced. We all know that Kimi let Massa pass. If the stewards were able to "judge" that Hamilton did not adequately give up his position to Kimi after cutting the chicane in Belgian, then they should also be able to "judge" that Kimi did give up his position to Massa in violation of the rules.

I don't like protests and especially do not like race results changed by the stewards, but they did overturn Hamilton's win in Belgian, so this protest is only fair. Massa should be put back to third.

PLEASE think before you start a thread. [-X Are you aware that there is a Manufacturers Championship for he COMBINED results of a team's drivers? F1 is also a team sport and teammates have ALWAYS helped each other - often without having to be

ordered.

[USAF1FAN]

Pointless thread of the week.

Maybe, but I guess I'm still pissed that the stewards penalized Hamilton for the chicane incident at Spa. He would be Champion now had they not unnecessarily interfered. He gave up the position as required. Then they reinterpreted the rule to say you cannot pass until after the next turn--it's bogus.

[donskar]

For those moaning about team orders and about how drivers are supposed to race till the end..
Do you remember second drivers giving up their car to their first driver team mate so the first driver would continue the race?
Do you remember second drivers blocking the enemy while racing or even while being lapped?
Do you remember second drivers taking out the enemy?
Do you remember first drivers being ordered to maintain position, to slow down 10 laps before the chequered flag, or having their revs limited to force them slow down?
Do you remember first and second drivers being ordered to finish as they are after the second pit stop?
Have you been following F1 at all over the last 60 years?
Team orders have always been and always be a part of F1, whether allowed or not by any stupid rule.. Some may choose to slow down slightly over 20 laps to allow their team mate to pass them, others may choose to pull the handbrake near the finish line, step out and have a cigarette, others may "need" an extra pit stop 3 laps before the end of the race, and others may claim their brakes have overheated so they had to slow down. In my eyes Rubens and Michael in Austria was not a disgrace for F1, but on the contrary the most honest way to do it, as it made it clear to everyone that Rubens was following Team Orders and proved he would otherwise easily have been in front. If you know it will happen anyway, why would you rather have it stupidly disguised rather than straight forward and clear for all to see? Unless if you are so dumb that you really believe all the excuses they might invent after the race to justify the obvious...

Yes, andartop, I remember. Good post.

[bizadfar]

Pointless thread of the week.

Maybe, but I guess I'm still pissed that the stewards penalized Hamilton for the chicane incident at Spa. He would be Champion now had they not unnecessarily interfered. He gave up the position as required. Then they reinterpreted the rule to say you cannot pass until after the next turn--it's bogus.

Why are you going off topic and beating a dead horse...?

[Ray]

Even then, it's a dumb rule. The teams are the ones who're providing the cars for the drivers. The drivers ARE EMPLOYEES OF THE TEAMS AND ARE BEING PAID AS SUCH. Therefore, however you look at it...THE TEAMS SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO ENFORCE TEAM ORDERS. This is one rule I'm agreeable to have removed.

I don't remember on what thread or what it was about but I said the same exact thing a long time ago.

But I'm going to play Devil's advocate for a bit. This is racing, and it follows that the drivers should be racing from start to finish. Baseball has a rule that anyone who makes a mockery of the game during a play is to be ejected upon the completion of that play. Case in point was some Major League guy who hit his xxxth home run, and decided to make it memorable by running the bases backwards. He was penalized with an ejection for making a mockery of the sport.

I can't stand baseball, but that's the dumbest fu*king thing I've heard in a long time. Not directed at you FOZ! But this 'anti-celebration', 'anti-achievement' bullshit HAS to stop. I'm so tired of the 'everything has to be fair and no one can celebrate' mentality. This mentality is dangerous, why are people not allowed to be proud of their achievements anymore? Why are children being taught in government operated schools that 'it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game'? That's total bullshit. There are winners and losers, there are lazy people and hard working people, there are risks and rewards. Shitty players are just that, and they deserve to lose. Winners work hard no matter what the circumstances and they win. I will NOT teach my children this bullshit and they will not go to a government brainwashing institution.

I'm a Ferrari fan, but I do believe that McLaren and Hamilton have been treated unfairly. There is a rule against "team orders." Whether the rule is stupid or not is beside the point--McLaren should demand that it be enforced. We all know that Kimi let Massa pass. If the stewards were able to "judge" that Hamilton did not adequately give up his position to Kimi after cutting the chicane in Belgian, then they should also be able to "judge" that Kimi did give up his position to Massa in violation of the rules.

I don't like protests and especially do not like race results changed by the stewards, but they did overturn Hamilton's win in Belgian, so this protest is only fair. Massa should be put back to third.

ferrari fan my a$$...why didn't you f*cking complain last season you dummy?

We Americans already look stupid enough without you making it worse.

Here you are talking about how Americans are stupid and there you go making yourself look stupid. Speak for yourself, not us 'Americans'.

[Project Four]

No, No, No,

Silly post. Team orders are part of F1, especially at this time of the year and besides impossible to police.

If it was earlier in the year and both championships were still open and one team was favouring only one driver then maybe, but again how do you police it and prove that a team are using team orders and that they aren’t against the spirit of the sport.

[Shaddock]

I believe the young people who didn't watch F1 in 2001 are misunderstanding the reason of the rule against team orders. What happened then is that Jean Todt ORDERED (hence the name "team orders") Rubens to "Let Micheal pass", against Rubens' will. To add further crap in the matter, this was in no way a championship decisive race, as it was actually the sixth race of the season, and the swap of position had no effect on Schuey's ranking in WDC.

So it was just spoiling of the race because Ferrari had decided before the season that Rubens was a number two driver who will have to play the b*tch for schuey, and would have no real chances to fight for WDC on his own.

That's why everyone was gutted.

I think it was this race that Shuey handed the winners trophy to Rubens whilst still on the podium. I think he also got fined for breaching some regulations and the rules were then changed to ban team order there after.

[andartop]

-team orders will always play a major role in F1, as they have always had.
-the rule to prevent team orders is silly, exactly because it is something no one can control.
-if some people prefer the hypocrisy of covering the whole thing up with lame excuses (ie brake problems, extra pit stop, not suitable set of tires, limited revs, going off track etc)so that they don't feel fooled or offended, they are just fooling (and thus offending) themselves, as it is usually quite obvious to everyone whenever team orders are applied.
-the most respectful way in my opinion for a driver to conform to team orders is exactly to make it in a very obvious manner (ie slowing down to almost a still on the last lap), so it is very clear for all to see who is the best and who helps his team because he has to.
-as far as the MS and RB incident is concerned i agree it was not necessary at that point. on the other hand you never can tell when a few points might come in handy (Brazil 07 anyone?), and between these two drivers i think it is quite obvious to anyone that RB was asked to back up MS because MS could and did win 5 championships, and not the other way around, ie RB did not win 5 championships because he had to back up MS!!!!

[shir0]

A1-ring GP-Jean Todt style...twice over

Yeah...in a way, you're right Vyselegend. But it wasn't in 2001 when that "non-championship"-affecting order was given that the ban was imposed.

The ban was imposed after the second incident in the following year and in the same track, when the same order was given by Todt. The huge difference that time was, it was one of Ruben's first points finish of the season after several DNFs. And in my opinion, without the prior DNFs, Rubens was more than capable of challenging for the WDC, given that he had the same all-dominating car as Michael did. And Todt didn't want even a hint of that happening.