F1 current hybrid turbocharger actual weight

[gruntguru]

Is weight really a problem for the current formula? I mean for the compressor wheel itself. The wheel probably has quite a steady RPM of 125.000 and spun up if asked for by a quite powerful electric motor. A few grams have almost no gain in performance while it becomes more durable.

I'm wondering the same.
Having turbo with higher inertia could be an advantage when bypassing 4/2MJ rules.

I don’t see much room to use the H as some kind of flywheel to store energy, as there is the limit of 125.000 rpm. The moment you want the K energised again, there is also air demand for the ICE.

I was thinking more in line of the 125.000 limit. If ICE designers choose to have a stable fuel/air mix above 10.500 rpm, the turbo should spin on a stable 125.000 rpm trough the whole powerband (of whatever speed the designers choose).

And if something is rotating on a stable speed, weight doesn’t matter.

It would be interesting to know what he turbo speed does through the gears. The boost required at 12,000 would be less than that required at 10,500 and the airflow would probably be the same. If they control the boost with turbo speed this would trace a vertical line on the compressor map and the turbo speed would vary significantly (easy to do with the help of the MGUH).

If you wanted to maintain a constant turbo speed while accelerating it would require throttling at the higher speed which would be less efficient than slowing the turbo with the MGUH and putting some charge in the ES.

[godlameroso]

It's better to have that "flywheel" effect in the MGU-H itself rather than the turbo, because the response of the turbo is still very important to both power output and drivability.

[gruntguru]

It's better to have that "flywheel" effect in the MGU-H itself rather than the turbo, because the response of the turbo is still very important to both power output and drivability.

There is no difference. The MGUH and the turbo impellers are on the same shaft and fixed.

[saviour stivala]

It's better to have that "flywheel" effect in the MGU-H itself rather than the turbo, because the response of the turbo is still very important to both power output and drivability.

What difference does it make having ‘flywheel’ effect (added rotational weight) on the MGU-H instead of on any of the 2 rotating element of the turbocharger itself in respect of the very important turbocharger spool-up response?. Also what difference does it make in respect to the high-up position the turbocharger is mandated to be?.

[sosic2121]

Wasn't there a document from Honda that confirmed that they used MGU-H to bypass the rules, basically as a flywheel?

[gruntguru]

I believe they were using the MGUH to store energy electrically (in the windings) not mechanically.

[Tommy Cookers]

iirc
what made the Honda 'extra harvest' legal was the mechanical energy storage

K-generated electricity pulses became H-rotation mechanical energy pulses which became H-generated electricity pulses
this double conversion legitimising an indirect supply of electrical energy that would not be legitimate if supplied directly

btw
there always was some scope for electrical energy storage (300 KJ or was it 30 KJ ??) in the K/H 'controller'
because it needs on-board (capacitive) storage to do its job

[saviour stivala]

With the cars carrying much more speed through the corners it is harder than before for the ‘K’ to harvest 2mj/lap allowed to charge ‘ES’ let alone to spin the ‘H’. The ‘H’ was always doing the bulk of recovery, and that need increased with the cars increase of cornering speed.

[Jolle]

With the cars carrying much more speed through the corners it is harder than before for the ‘K’ to harvest 2mj/lap allowed to charge ‘ES’ let alone to spin the ‘H’. The ‘H’ was always doing the bulk of recovery, and that need increased with the cars increase of cornering speed.

If you assume that the K can only harvest under braking, yes. But they can harvest or charge the ES with the K whenever they are not using the full power of the ICE, so from the moment they brake (using the back wheels to charge) right up to the point well after the apex where they have straighten the car (using the ICE to charge the ES). Excess energy from the H can go unlimited straight into the K (and visa versa).

[sosic2121]

With the cars carrying much more speed through the corners it is harder than before for the ‘K’ to harvest 2mj/lap allowed to charge ‘ES’ let alone to spin the ‘H’. The ‘H’ was always doing the bulk of recovery, and that need increased with the cars increase of cornering speed.

If you assume that the K can only harvest under braking, yes. But they can harvest or charge the ES with the K whenever they are not using the full power of the ICE, so from the moment they brake (using the back wheels to charge) right up to the point well after the apex where they have straighten the car (using the ICE to charge the ES). Excess energy from the H can go unlimited straight into the K (and visa versa).

Not only that, but it's also beneficial to harvest on the end of the straights before breaking, in order to deploy more on the beginning of the next straight.

[saviour stivala]

Yes. That’s what I still assume. I still believe that ‘K’ harvesting is triggered by the brake pedal as if not there would never have been any difficulty at least on most tracks for the ‘k’ to harvest what the rules allow.
If the rules allowed the ‘K’ to harvest through engine power that would mean harvesting by the use of fuel which would have contradicted their claim of the ‘K’ converting braking heat into energy.

[godlameroso]

It's better to have that "flywheel" effect in the MGU-H itself rather than the turbo, because the response of the turbo is still very important to both power output and drivability.

What difference does it make having ‘flywheel’ effect (added rotational weight) on the MGU-H instead of on any of the 2 rotating element of the turbocharger itself in respect of the very important turbocharger spool-up response?. Also what difference does it make in respect to the high-up position the turbocharger is mandated to be?.

The guts of the MGU-H make up the majority of the 4kg minimum weight. That already acts as a flywheel but can be countered by the fact it is a motor. It is more efficient to live with a heavy MGU-H than it is to live with both heavy MGU-H and heavy turbo wheels.

[Jolle]

Yes. That’s what I still assume. I still believe that ‘K’ harvesting is triggered by the brake pedal as if not there would never have been any difficulty at least on most tracks for the ‘k’ to harvest what the rules allow.
If the rules allowed the ‘K’ to harvest through engine power that would mean harvesting by the use of fuel which would have contradicted their claim of the ‘K’ converting braking heat into energy.

It can do both and it’s not triggered by the brake but carefully controlled by the ECU and one of the biggest things that change in the different engine maps.

For instance, in a maximal harvest map, the K is harvesting everywhere. In the race when saving fuel, it’s harvest is limited from the rear wheels as much as possible, etc etc.

There are things they say on telly to make the general public understand F1, then you have the F1 website that goes a bit deeper but still keeping it more marketing and you have the FIA website, that’s the real one!

[godlameroso]

Since the Power unit formula started, we still don't know the inner workings of the MGU-H. Is it just a 3 phase motor/generator? How do they stuff that many magnets and windings in that tiny little thing that it can output 100hp?

[subcritical71]

Yes. That’s what I still assume. I still believe that ‘K’ harvesting is triggered by the brake pedal as if not there would never have been any difficulty at least on most tracks for the ‘k’ to harvest what the rules allow.
If the rules allowed the ‘K’ to harvest through engine power that would mean harvesting by the use of fuel which would have contradicted their claim of the ‘K’ converting braking heat into energy.

The rules do not disallow it and that is key. It may only be actually used in certain scenarios (Behind the safety car or during VSC are two times that would come to immediate mind). Your thinking means that things like burning lubricants for power gain would not have been possible, it’s stated purpose is as a lubricant, yet it was exploited.