[ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

[Sevach]

I'm sure things like Vettel's approach to team orders - happy to take advantage, loathe to reciprocate - doesn't help. It's all very well saying that your team mate didn't play by the rules in some situation or other, but you start to sound like a schoolboy if you're not careful: "he started it, so I'm not playing with him!".

Compare to Hamilton's reaction when asked to play nicely with Bottas - maybe the difference is that he knows he has Bottas beaten. Against Rosberg he was harder (although did play by the rules mostly). Perhaps this is a useful indication of a driver's view of his relationship with his team mate - if he feels comfortable then he is nicer to them. Look at any number of midfield intra-team battles and see team mates refusing to let each other by. Lots of tension between two guys who think they deserve to be ahead, or hate their team mate perhaps.

Maybe in Vettel's mind he doesn't think he has Leclerc beaten, or maybe he's just selfish (in the racing driver sense of the word) and doesn't want to give up any advantage. Certainly he never played fair with Webber either so there is some history there.

I don't remember Hamilton ever letting Rosberg through, i remember him refusing to comply despite the team telling him Nico would stop again.
And of course Abu Dhabi 2016 though understandable it was.
Rosberg let Hamilton through once in Monaco where he was very slow and held his attack all the way back in 2013 Sepang (still Ross Brawn making the calls).

Vettel let Charles through at Spa, but not at Russia.
Charles let Vettel through at Russia(under the promise of pay back), and a bunch of other races that took them both nowhere, also held back in Australia.
Also not an intentional team order but he was pissed(understandably) after Singapore.
In Monza Vettel gave the slipstream but shenanigans ensued before he could get pay back, not fully Charles fault but he only overtook Seb quite late.

Overall terrible job administrating the drivers by Ferrari.

[ferkan]

Carlos has better Racecraft than Leclerc so dont worry about qualifying they will fighting for fifth and sixth if Ferrari dont fix the aero problem next year!

Not sure I agree with that. You mean Carlos race pace was better relative to his team mate then CLs? That I agree with. Vettel still had slight advantage on average over Leclerc in race pace, although Leclerc on his day (Bahrain, Spa, Monza, France, Silverstone) looked quite a bit faster.

As for race craft (overtaking, defending) I cannot agree on that at all.

Race craft is also executing the strategy or reading the race to come up with new stratgy or tactics... Managing the tyres.. All that stuff.

I'm a fan of LeClerc mind you, but he was mainly fast when the tyres were in that good window that was not entirely of his making. Remember it was only his second year so he will get better. But I must call it as i see it; Carlos Sainz race craft is two levels above Charles at the moment. Unless I see LeClerc step his game up against Vettel this year, the fight in 2021 will be very intriguing.

We will have to agree to disagree. Leclerc outscored Vettel across entire season, Sainz beat Norris and lost badly to Hulk the year prior (considering Hulk had 7 DNFs and Sainz 2).

Its hard to compare race craft when one goes against 4xWDC and other against rookie. Completely different standards (and Vettel is damn good in races).

[Sevach]

I hope it is not political and they are allowed to race, at least as long as both are in the fight

They did that even with Alonso-Massa. Massa was always allowed to race until he lost so many points he´s no longer in the fight for the title, so I´m sure they will do the same with Lecrerc-Sainz

People usually consider Ferrari as the team wich provide more TOs, but IMHO they´ve always been very fair in that aspect, even teams like McLaren or Racing Point (Force India) and even Haas have been a lot more unfair in that aspect than the red ones, despite a lower profile at the respect.

IMO RBR should receive that title by a huge margin with the next, since their very first season in F1

Massa was getting team orders from the very beggining of their first season together.
Massa didn't comply on this occasion, probably surprised given that he used to be equal status with Kimi, but the orders were happening and Ferrari made their choice quite early.

Around 4:05


Massa recently spoke about it in a podcast.

[siskue2005]

Australia 2019 GP
Singapore 2019

TOs in Australia? What? I´ve watched a highlights video, but couldn´t find any either.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/03/17/fer ... nd-vettel/
Leclerc, in his first race for the team, caught Vettel in the final laps. Vettel’s tyres were older than Leclerc and he was lapping slower than his team mate.
However when Leclerc got within striking distance of his team mate he asked the Ferrari pit wall whether he should hold his position. “Yes,” he was told. “Back off to have some margin.”

Before the season began Ferrari team principal Mattia Binotto said his two drivers were “free to fight” each other. However he also indicated Leclerc would be required to play a supporting role to Vettel “if there is any ambiguous situation at the start of the season”.

Speaking before the race Leclerc said: “I completely understand the decision.

Dont know why the "Fair team" issued team order to Leclerc in the very first race!?

And the same thing happened in the next race also in Bahrain 2019
https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/02/why ... nd-vettel/
New team principal Mattia Binotto talked about how his drivers were “free to fight” but also indicated that in an “ambiguous situation”, Sebastian Vettel would get preferential treatment: “He has already won championships, so he is our champion,” said Binotto.
What did all these platitudes mean in real terms? We can judge that from the fact Charles Leclerc is two races into his Ferrari career and has already been told not to overtake his team mate in both of them.

Please tell me why did this happen?

AFASIK Alonso didnot win the WDC in 2010, so backing him didnot prove right coz Alonso made some silly errors in Spa, Britain which is what cost the WDC

No they didn´t win, but it was close, despite the 3 races (75 points) difference in Germany...

1- Vettel 256
2- Alonso 252
.
.
.
6- Massa 144

If this is not enough to confirm Ferrari strategy was the best, I don´t know what else do you need

Maybe if they have allowed Massa to race on equal grounds things would have been different (and please dont tell me Massa is not capable to fight for WDC.

No that is NOT what Ferrari do, no matter how many times is repeated. They provide equal opportunities till one driver lost too many points to keep in the fight. Show me one single situation when Ferrari didn´t do that.

Australia 2019
Bahrain 2019
Singapore 2019

i can keep going on and on

[mika vs michael]

You don't become a 4 time world champion by obeying team orders that are against you. Vettel was not Ferraris biggest problem. Ferraris biggest problem was some aspects of the car. and that Mercedes was better in many fields. It is clear that Ferrari could not offer no 1 status to Vettel and obviously Binotto was not interested in dealing with the rivalry between Leclerc and Vettel. he is the only team manager and technical manager at the same time in F1....Anyway I'd prefer Vettel to stay. we long time Ferrari supporters wanted to believe that he was the M Schumacher heir that could bring at least one title to Maranello. The same with Alonso. I don't see this happening in the next 3-4 years. Ferrari was never good when there were big rule changes. So I don't see them winning before 2023-24...

[siskue2005]

You don't become a 4 time world champion by obeying team orders that are against you. Vettel was not Ferraris biggest problem. Ferraris biggest problem was some aspects of the car. and that Mercedes was better in many fields.

Really? 2017 and 2018 Ferrari had really good car, almost equal and faster in most races and still they didnt win coz
Was it because
a. Poor car
b. Faster opposition
c. Lack of No.1 status
d. Spinning

I always admired Vettel, no one can have 50 odd wins and 4 WDC without having some talent
but the last few years ferrari could have been 2 times champions if it was a consistent and error free Vettel
Maybe many have forgotten but this should refresh their memory
[youtube][/youtube]

It is clear that Ferrari could not offer no 1 status to Vettel and obviously Binotto was not interested in dealing with the rivalry between Leclerc and Vettel.

No.1 status is earned mate, it is not supposed to handed in a silver plate.

[siskue2005]

I hope it is not political and they are allowed to race, at least as long as both are in the fight

They did that even with Alonso-Massa. Massa was always allowed to race until he lost so many points he´s no longer in the fight for the title, so I´m sure they will do the same with Lecrerc-Sainz

People usually consider Ferrari as the team wich provide more TOs, but IMHO they´ve always been very fair in that aspect, even teams like McLaren or Racing Point (Force India) and even Haas have been a lot more unfair in that aspect than the red ones, despite a lower profile at the respect.

IMO RBR should receive that title by a huge margin with the next, since their very first season in F1

Massa was getting team orders from the very beggining of their first season together.
Massa didn't comply on this occasion, probably surprised given that he used to be equal status with Kimi, but the orders were happening and Ferrari made their choice quite early.

Around 4:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tim0aLFedZ8

Massa recently spoke about it in a podcast.

Yup true

[PlatinumZealot]

We will have to agree to disagree. Leclerc outscored Vettel across entire season, Sainz beat Norris and lost badly to Hulk the year prior (considering Hulk had 7 DNFs and Sainz 2).

Its hard to compare race craft when one goes against 4xWDC and other against rookie. Completely different standards (and Vettel is damn good in races).

Race craft is absolute if you ask me. You seem to be focusing on race pace, which is related, but is a different thing. For example, Jenson Button race pace, over the three years with Lewis, was inferior, but his race craft! his race craft put in in positions to be a proper thorn in Lewis side. As a Lewis fan I was wondering what sort of trickery JB was going to pull of this race! Thankfully Lewis can say he learned a lot about racecraft from the wily old Jenson Button.

[PlatinumZealot]

Australia 2019
Bahrain 2019
Singapore 2019

i can keep going on and on

Sorry to but in. So you are saying that even with preferential treatment, Vettel still got his gluteus maximus handed to him by a sophomore driver?

[Just_a_fan]

I don't remember Hamilton ever letting Rosberg through, i remember him refusing to comply despite the team telling him Nico would stop again.

Was that the one where he said "I'm not slowing down for him, if he catches me I'll let him through"? If so I can understand that one, much as I can with Vettel when he said a similar thing about Leclrec having to get up to him and make the pass (which Leclerc couldn't do).

[Andres125sx]

I hope it is not political and they are allowed to race, at least as long as both are in the fight

They did that even with Alonso-Massa. Massa was always allowed to race until he lost so many points he´s no longer in the fight for the title, so I´m sure they will do the same with Lecrerc-Sainz

People usually consider Ferrari as the team wich provide more TOs, but IMHO they´ve always been very fair in that aspect, even teams like McLaren or Racing Point (Force India) and even Haas have been a lot more unfair in that aspect than the red ones, despite a lower profile at the respect.

IMO RBR should receive that title by a huge margin with the next, since their very first season in F1

Massa was getting team orders from the very beggining of their first season together.
Massa didn't comply on this occasion, probably surprised given that he used to be equal status with Kimi, but the orders were happening and Ferrari made their choice quite early.

Around 4:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tim0aLFedZ8

Massa recently spoke about it in a podcast.

Surprised? After Alonso had a contact in the start, went to the back of the pack, and even so he recovered all the distance with Massa?

I´ll repeat it, TOs are Team Orders, best for the team, if one of your drivers show a very good pace, much faster than your other driver but he´s in front, best strategy for the team is letting him pass. Then if he can´t overtake any more position they can always order him to return the position to his team mate, but it´s their job to give it a try.

It´s the same as when they have different strategies with one car with newer tires, the team has to provide TOs to not ruin their own race. Keep in mind no driver should fight his teammate as hard as any other driver, wich means overtaking is even more difficult than it usually is, so there´re only two options, let them fight with equal cars (wich means overtaking is more difficult as none accelerate, brake or corner better than the other as it happens with different cars) and assume the risk of a double DNF, or analyse who´s faster and dodge a potential disaster.


Maybe I didn´t word it properly, to me TOs are decisions to increase some driver opportunities even if that´s at the expense of the other one, but when it´s just to not ruin some your drivers race to me that´s not TOs, that´s common sense

[Andres125sx]

Australia 2019 GP
Singapore 2019

TOs in Australia? What? I´ve watched a highlights video, but couldn´t find any either.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/03/17/fer ... nd-vettel/
Leclerc, in his first race for the team, caught Vettel in the final laps. Vettel’s tyres were older than Leclerc and he was lapping slower than his team mate.
However when Leclerc got within striking distance of his team mate he asked the Ferrari pit wall whether he should hold his position. “Yes,” he was told. “Back off to have some margin.”

Before the season began Ferrari team principal Mattia Binotto said his two drivers were “free to fight” each other. However he also indicated Leclerc would be required to play a supporting role to Vettel “if there is any ambiguous situation at the start of the season”.

Speaking before the race Leclerc said: “I completely understand the decision.

Dont know why the "Fair team" issued team order to Leclerc in the very first race!?

And the same thing happened in the next race also in Bahrain 2019
https://www.racefans.net/2019/04/02/why ... nd-vettel/
New team principal Mattia Binotto talked about how his drivers were “free to fight” but also indicated that in an “ambiguous situation”, Sebastian Vettel would get preferential treatment: “He has already won championships, so he is our champion,” said Binotto.
What did all these platitudes mean in real terms? We can judge that from the fact Charles Leclerc is two races into his Ferrari career and has already been told not to overtake his team mate in both of them.

Please tell me why did this happen?

AFASIK Alonso didnot win the WDC in 2010, so backing him didnot prove right coz Alonso made some silly errors in Spa, Britain which is what cost the WDC

No they didn´t win, but it was close, despite the 3 races (75 points) difference in Germany...

1- Vettel 256
2- Alonso 252
.
.
.
6- Massa 144

If this is not enough to confirm Ferrari strategy was the best, I don´t know what else do you need

Maybe if they have allowed Massa to race on equal grounds things would have been different (and please dont tell me Massa is not capable to fight for WDC.

No that is NOT what Ferrari do, no matter how many times is repeated. They provide equal opportunities till one driver lost too many points to keep in the fight. Show me one single situation when Ferrari didn´t do that.

Australia 2019
Bahrain 2019
Singapore 2019

i can keep going on and on

Sincerely, I have to agree with you about 2019, they were not fair with Lecrerc. But it was a 4x WDC with an almost rookie, something understandable even if Charles is an extremelly talented driver. I´d bet Seb contract had something at the respect

[Andres125sx]

Australia 2019
Bahrain 2019
Singapore 2019

i can keep going on and on

Sorry to but in. So you are saying that even with preferential treatment, Vettel still got his gluteus maximus handed to him by a sophomore driver?

[Scorpaguy]

I wonder....

...Do Ferrari/Bino believe the blogs and press, thinking that they actually did have a superior package than Merc in 17 and 18 (sheer lunacy IMHO) or did they simply run out of patience and looked for another last straw to grab (thereby canning Vet/saving cash/hoping for better chemistry/praying for a miracle)?

2020 aside...if it ever happens...by all hints, belongs to Merc. Beyond that, things look quite bleak for Big Red as their mantra has always been "bigger bucks for more bang" rather than "bigger bang for the buck".

Maybe Big Red is chasing a new paradigm in which the WDC is irrelevant and brand exposure is paramount. WEC and Indy, here we come???

[Sevach]

They did that even with Alonso-Massa. Massa was always allowed to race until he lost so many points he´s no longer in the fight for the title, so I´m sure they will do the same with Lecrerc-Sainz

People usually consider Ferrari as the team wich provide more TOs, but IMHO they´ve always been very fair in that aspect, even teams like McLaren or Racing Point (Force India) and even Haas have been a lot more unfair in that aspect than the red ones, despite a lower profile at the respect.

IMO RBR should receive that title by a huge margin with the next, since their very first season in F1

Massa was getting team orders from the very beggining of their first season together.
Massa didn't comply on this occasion, probably surprised given that he used to be equal status with Kimi, but the orders were happening and Ferrari made their choice quite early.

Around 4:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tim0aLFedZ8

Massa recently spoke about it in a podcast.

Surprised? After Alonso had a contact in the start, went to the back of the pack, and even so he recovered all the distance with Massa?

I´ll repeat it, TOs are Team Orders, best for the team, if one of your drivers show a very good pace, much faster than your other driver but he´s in front, best strategy for the team is letting him pass. Then if he can´t overtake any more position they can always order him to return the position to his team mate, but it´s their job to give it a try.

It´s the same as when they have different strategies with one car with newer tires, the team has to provide TOs to not ruin their own race. Keep in mind no driver should fight his teammate as hard as any other driver, wich means overtaking is even more difficult than it usually is, so there´re only two options, let them fight with equal cars (wich means overtaking is more difficult as none accelerate, brake or corner better than the other as it happens with different cars) and assume the risk of a double DNF, or analyse who´s faster and dodge a potential disaster.


Maybe I didn´t word it properly, to me TOs are decisions to increase some driver opportunities even if that´s at the expense of the other one, but when it´s just to not ruin some your drivers race to me that´s not TOs, that´s common sense

I have no problems with team orders, i just think it's naive to think Ferrari wasn't putting their eggs on the Alonso(which i can't blame them, he is much better than Felipe) basket from the go.

In this particular case it seems like a pointless order to me, Massa was pretty much limited by Kubica (which contrary to Alonso's talking point wasn't going away) and i don't know how much more pressure Fernando could've put, maybe a bit more but i think the odds are he keeps staring at the Renault RW until the end of the race.