[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Big Tea]

Well, aside from difficulties, it just doesn't make sense that when one team is dominating, you alter the regulations such that it's even more difficult for competitors to catch up.

The thing is that I don’t believe that the regulations were changed in order to hamper the other competitors and they have had several years to change their approach to rake if they wanted to... If what some think in this thread (that low rake is superior with the current set of regulations than high rake), I find it hard to believe that Red Bull didn’t realized this too and didn’t made a change in their philosophy.


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I don't think they deliberately changed the rules to hamper competition either, but the way the rules was changed did hamper competition in practice, which should (and could, and probably to an extend was) be realized upfront. However, keep in mind there was not one -big- regulation change that -massively- hampered high rake cars. There were small changes, each time hampering everyone to some extend, and high rake setups more than average. But I can very well imagine that each time, Red Bull figured that a total concept overhaul would set them back more than sticking with the concept - a full concept overhaul may have taken more than one year to get on top of. And every time, they were probably right in that, had there not been an at that point unforeseen change in the next year, plus an extension of the current formula this year. Had they known all these things, perhaps they would have changed more radically in 2016 or so.

And still, it doesn't change my point. If you change regulations because racing is boring because one team is dominating, you need to keep in mind what effect that regulation change will have, considering the car philosophies teams are using at that point- and if it makes the already dominating concept even more dominating, you should not push the change. Especially if it essentially forces all teams to follow the same philosophy as the leading team. It's nice if teams can compete with different philosophies, cars look enough alike as it is. That the most successful car
upgrade this year seems to be the one team that just copy/pasted last years front runner, shows how dire the state of F1 regulation is. If we're going that way anyway, i'd rather just see a standardized chassis - at least in that case the other teams do get a proper chance to compete.

Apparently a giraffe has a vain that goes from its right shoulder to its left shoulder via its head.
Had it known from the beginning its neck was going t be that long it would have found a way to go straight across.
Each time the neck grew it was just a little extra to add, less than going straight across, and the next time, and the next time etc.

Small steps add up until it is a huge job to alter the way you have been working and probably not worth it unless you are forced to. Besides, Newey probably understands the present system perfectly and it could take a few years to adapt if it changed. (AN) Helmet, can we have a bad car for 2 years while I sort this out? (HM) Sod off

[epo]

Of course you are right that the fastest driver is closest to the maximum pace of the car and its physically impossible to go beyond that point. I think he meant that the second driver (which is for some reason struggling to get close to the maximum pace) exposes the ease to reach that maximum pace. I find it a nice short rule of thumb to evaluate car performance.

Red Bull alienated both Sainz and Ricciardo in their quest to coalesce their whole project around their golden child Max, so what you have left is two drivers (Gasly and Albon) who were completely not ready to step into the main car. Albon is doing slightly better than Gasly pace wise, granted but still.

It’s remarkable the spin and perception people put on Inter-team politics depending on who it is. Is Max sensationally fast, daring In all conditions and improving his racecraft all the time? Certainly. However he’s being made to look better than he is by what is all of a sudden glaring lack of experience/talent depth in the RB driver ranks? Also true.

Nobody can convince me that Ricciardo or Sainz would be half a second down In quali nor finishing 40 seconds behind on Sunday

You can see it like that, but Sainz was also out because of his fathers relationship with RB, he was too demanding.
And Daniel could also have stayed, but he preferred a fresh start and probably didn't want to have a superior team-mate.
Anyways you can't have to alphas in a team (or a wannabe alpha), Hamilton and Rosberg proved that, and Vettel and Leclerc is not much either. Bottas is clearly the perfect number 2, fast and keeps his mouth shut.

[Ground Effect]

Whenever there’s been a rule change, Mercedes has actually seemed the least enthusiastic about it, among the top teams.. Toto has said a couple of times that rules stability leads to convergence, be it aero or PU. He was quite vocal about his dislike for the 2017 rules, which McLaren were heavily involved in drawing up, before some compromises were made. I think the various rule changes have been an attempt to change the pecking order, which obviously haven’t gone well. For some strange reason, Red Bull have been unable to capitalise on them, with the same situation of slow start, then picking up in the last third or so, when Mercedes have switched attention to the next years car.
I read an article today where an ex Red Bull driver, whose name I can’t recall now, mentioned that maybe Red Bull could do with some fresh blood in the team. As good as continuity is, sometimes change is good. Newey is exceptional, but he’s been there for so long and set in his ways. Not just him, most of their senior people, Horner, Rob Marshall, Monaghan, Dan Fallows and probably a few more. One thing is evident, Red Bull haven’t been producing the best cars out of the box for a while now.

[etusch]

I don't understand Fia reason for cutting floor why can't they just play around with the size or angle of rear wing.Pirelli has proven multiple times that they are not upto the task the opportunity to bring Michelin was there but for some reason still stuck with Pirelli.does Fia really want to improve the show because for some reason they always shoot themself in the foot.

Ever since the advent of f1 overtaking group men with magic recipe that going to make f1 great against f1 have been jumping from one rule change to another looking for that holy grail of entertainment perfection.Rules are supposed to last for 5 years,but top brass are getting restless.i think it's time they give and stop wasting everyone's money.

they say that but I think those word are only in their mouth and pocket. In reality they don't have an intention to bring close fight to the sport. If they were sincere with that they would immediately left token system when they realise that Mercedes pu is much better than others. They would ban oil burn because of 1 second qualification difference before waiting someone find out the trick. But they didn't. For sure they have zero intention to bring competition.
I give same example everytime. When Marquez dominates the motogp season Rossi talked about Honda bike's braking ability. That times there was a rule about front brake, allowing bigger diameter discs for some track and smaller diameter for remained ones. With smaller diameter Honda was better than yamaha but with bigger yamaha was as fast as Honda.
Rossi said that Iwould like to brake like Honda but we can't when we use smaller discs. Maybe one race later, maybe right away dorna allowed bigger diameter discs for whole season. Then Yamaha were close.to Honda every race.
when dorna introduced open ecu they give open ecu users + 5 lt gasoline and a softer compound tyre which is not usable for others. By this way Ducati is there in competition.
Those are good examples if someone tries to make it competitive and formula administration is good example for lier.

[ispano6]

I feel Red Bull's blunder was their track day in Silverstone instead of the Red Bull Ring. How did they let Renault run the track and not do film day there themselves and shake down the car before hand? It's their home course. Red Bull could have capitalized on Mercedes issues first race plus hotter favorable conditions but blew it.

Quarantine rules in the UK still that week. If you left the UK and wanted to go back, you needed to stay 2 weeks locked up at home. That's why Verstappen didn't come to Silverstone for the procedure testing.

Think they were lifted the next week.

They could have come to Austria and stayed. They could have done everything Renault did. No reason to go back to the UK. Marko probably realized this after Renault ran there.

[godlameroso]

Hungary is going to be tricky, it's going to get warmer throughout the weekend, might spit during Friday. Luckily race day is going to be quite warm, hopefully that helps.

Last year a two stop was the winning strategy, I wonder if it will work this year as well?

Also, why are my posts being deleted?

[langedweil]

Perhaps a memory glitch ?
High rake does offer some incredible features over low rake, however it is relying much much more on perfectly sealing the floor aerodynamically.
A whole lot more than low raked cars such as the Merc, that with their longer platform is A. less susceptible to breaking the floor sealing and B. has more floor to generate downforce with.
The 2018 FW's were masterpieces (not only RB's) in generating and controlling the vortices that sealed the floors; a guy like Newey probably dreamt for decades about the Y250 vortex.

And yet .. with a significant lower ranked PU, RB was still able to win races on merit.

Hmm, maybe you was asleep for the last few years.
Yiu didn't mention a single advantage that the high rake offers. Newey isn't an aerodynamicist the likes of Peter P is who pushed the high rake at Mclaren and look where they are now. Racing point and even Renault all used very high level of rake. The downforce advantage from higher rake can be matched by having longer floor, that was one of the advantage especially when they had blown diffuser.
The 3 wins in 2018 by Redbull is nothing to write about, only Monaco was by merit and Merc had very poor slow corner turning characteristics which is no longer the case. The shorter wheelbase made the car nimble but now with clever seering and suspension arrangement this can be done far on much longer wheelbase.
The Redbull is poor in windy conditions.

As usual, you speak in gibberish riddles

[langedweil]

I asked for a simple proof of this prediction done before the cars hit ground in 2019 and you started typing same things that is being repeated over and over again. I have followed Newey's genius designs for ages now and especially with Red Bull era and I know how effective his designs have been.

Once again I am asking, please show a single article or a post on this from that predicted the simplified wings hurting high rake cars more than low rake, before the cars hit the ground in preseason.

I will as soon as I have the time ..

[Wouter]

I asked for a simple proof of this prediction done before the cars hit ground in 2019 and you started typing same things that is being repeated over and over again. I have followed Newey's genius designs for ages now and especially with Red Bull era and I know how effective his designs have been.

Once again I am asking, please show a single article or a post on this from that predicted the simplified wings hurting high rake cars more than low rake, before the cars hit the ground in preseason.

I will as soon as I have the time ..

@Langedweil, I've seen Newey said that in an interview on youtube, but I can't find it anymore.
Maybe you can find it there.

[TNTHead]

Of course you are right that the fastest driver is closest to the maximum pace of the car and its physically impossible to go beyond that point. I think he meant that the second driver (which is for some reason struggling to get close to the maximum pace) exposes the ease to reach that maximum pace. I find it a nice short rule of thumb to evaluate car performance.

Red Bull alienated both Sainz and Ricciardo in their quest to coalesce their whole project around their golden child Max, so what you have left is two drivers (Gasly and Albon) who were completely not ready to step into the main car. Albon is doing slightly better than Gasly pace wise, granted but still.

It’s remarkable the spin and perception people put on Inter-team politics depending on who it is. Is Max sensationally fast, daring In all conditions and improving his racecraft all the time? Certainly. However he’s being made to look better than he is by what is all of a sudden glaring lack of experience/talent depth in the RB driver ranks? Also true.

Nobody can convince me that Ricciardo or Sainz would be half a second down In quali nor finishing 40 seconds behind on Sunday

You can see it like that, but Sainz was also out because of his fathers relationship with RB, he was too demanding.
And Daniel could also have stayed, but he preferred a fresh start and probably didn't want to have a superior team-mate.
Anyways you can't have to alphas in a team (or a wannabe alpha), Hamilton and Rosberg proved that, and Vettel and Leclerc is not much either. Bottas is clearly the perfect number 2, fast and keeps his mouth shut.

RB is definitely lacking an experienced second driver, for sure. This is even more needed when this high rake concept under the current rule set leads to razor edge setups. But you can also say that the car design has some flaws in it, or are a consequence of the chosen high rake philosophy.

I think they are saying for three years in a row now that their preparation for the season has never been better, but still come up with a car that needs in season development. If they indeed did a superb job (lets not forget they are steadily second or third force) in season development might be an inevatibility with this car concept.

[etusch]

We are overwhelmed by the engine power of Mercedes", Marko shared with the Kleine Zeitung. "During the first race we were able to keep up with the front of the field, but that was because it was ten degrees warmer at the time."

"We didn't stand a chance during the second race. Verstappen drove around with a damaged car, with which he could not even take second place", the Austrian continues. He looks back at the season start in disbelief. Red Bull seems somewhat defeated after the first races of the year.

Marko to review the situation again after Hungary
Marko did not expect a lack of speed to the extent which we saw during the Styrian Grand Prix. "We have to look at that carefully", he suggests.

"The paradox is that the advantage we knew we had for sure is now gone", Marko continues. Typically, Red Bull managed to be competitive on tracks significantly above sea level (like Austria, Mexico and Brazil). This advantage now seems to be gone.

Marko has an explanation for this: "This may be related to the fact that Honda engine is using a new turbo. In Budapest, however, we can only estimate how things will play out. The bottom line is that the start of the season has really shaken up the grid."

https://www.maximumf1.com/formula-1/298 ... CrvrzFnnTc

[TNTHead]

We are overwhelmed by the engine power of Mercedes", Marko shared with the Kleine Zeitung. "During the first race we were able to keep up with the front of the field, but that was because it was ten degrees warmer at the time."

"We didn't stand a chance during the second race. Verstappen drove around with a damaged car, with which he could not even take second place", the Austrian continues. He looks back at the season start in disbelief. Red Bull seems somewhat defeated after the first races of the year.

Marko to review the situation again after Hungary
Marko did not expect a lack of speed to the extent which we saw during the Styrian Grand Prix. "We have to look at that carefully", he suggests.

"The paradox is that the advantage we knew we had for sure is now gone.

Compare this with "one thing is for sure: we shouldn't get a slash in the face of losing half a second in qualifying again , as the qualifying mode of the engine is awesome."

He said after the first race. I sense that they are surprised by what is happening, that means they have underestimated Mercedes heavily. We'll have to wait and see where they stand after a few circuits. They can forget their championship aspirations unless Mercedes hits trouble, which is quite unlikely.

[ME4ME]

To be fair Mercedes said during the winter they were going to be bold with the engine. Then around pre-season testing all kind of questions appeared regarding their reliability. Luckily for them the season started only months later. But what ever way you put it they are doing a mighty impressive job.

[etusch]

We are overwhelmed by the engine power of Mercedes", Marko shared with the Kleine Zeitung. "During the first race we were able to keep up with the front of the field, but that was because it was ten degrees warmer at the time."

"We didn't stand a chance during the second race. Verstappen drove around with a damaged car, with which he could not even take second place", the Austrian continues. He looks back at the season start in disbelief. Red Bull seems somewhat defeated after the first races of the year.

Marko to review the situation again after Hungary
Marko did not expect a lack of speed to the extent which we saw during the Styrian Grand Prix. "We have to look at that carefully", he suggests.

"The paradox is that the advantage we knew we had for sure is now gone.

Compare this with "one thing is for sure: we shouldn't get a slash in the face of losing half a second in qualifying again , as the qualifying mode of the engine is awesome."

He said after the first race. I sense that they are surprised by what is happening, that means they have underestimated Mercedes heavily. We'll have to wait and see where they stand after a few circuits. They can forget their championship aspirations unless Mercedes hits trouble, which is quite unlikely.

We all do same estimation because of last season development rates. Mercedes engine is not that better from 2018 season and has issues. When it come to Honda they are developing race by race. But this time Mercedes made good step forward with still some issues. We still need Honda's low altitude performance. If it is still this bad maybe they return exturbo back.

[etusch]

To be fair Mercedes said during the winter they were going to be bold with the engine. Then around pre-season testing all kind of questions appeared regarding their reliability. Luckily for them the season started only months later. But what ever way you put it they are doing a mighty impressive job.

They are good at this formula from the begining and have good experience about this pu. When others trying to find power they were trying to make it perfect. Maybe they knew there is a better concept but wanted to squeeze everything from current one as long as they are ahead.