[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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bosyber
bosyber
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Sieper wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 14:11
I know from memory that Bottas struggled more with the traffic. You were asking where that gap increase was coming from. First Verstappen lost some time but when Bottas hit that same traffic he lost much more. Bottas later also said he was a bit unlucky with where he caught them. I believe he said he even spent a full lap behind one.
Yeah, the Mercedes post-race breakdown video mentioned Gasly and group were fighting each other quite heavily when Bottas got there, making it hard work to pass (I do wonder whether Hamilton, Verstappen would have been able to do that a tad more efficient, but that's OT).

Ground Effect
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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With reports of Seb in talks with RP, soon to be Aston Martin, Checo while insisting he has a long term contract says he’s been in contact with a rival F1 team. Could be Alfa Romeo, could be Haas, but could it possibly be Red Bull? I don’t think it would be a bad move.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Apologies to Big Tea for pulling his question into this thread.
Big Tea wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 16:51
This is interesting for those who are wondering where Albon's pace has gone. Is he driving to a plan respective of what he can do? Could he either be regulated by Honda as they would not like both engines to fail, or by the team and left as a 'tail gunner' to assess the true pace of catching cars?

If his job is just to finish a place behind max, he does not have to pace him
I think that if he was being used as a tail gunner, I would expect his race to be defined by Bottas' pit window.

Estimated time loss for a pit stop would be 21-22 seconds (based on the performance on the day). If you can, you probably want a slightly larger cushion, just in case.
- Verstappen pits on lap 24. At this point, the gap between Bottas and Albon is just over 20 seconds
This makes me wonder about whether the threat of an undercut was real. If Bottas pits that lap, he comes out right behind Albon*.

- Bottas goes on to pit on lap 34. It's interesting to note that from lap 24 until lap 34, the gap to Albon increases to 24.6 seconds.
- From 24 to 28, the gap increases by an average of 7.5/10ths per lap.
- From 29 to 33, the gap still increases but the amount it increases by drops steadily from 8/10ths on lap 28, to 2/10s on lap 32 and, on lap 33, Albon actually starts to close. At which point, Bottas pits the next time around at the end of lap 34.
- Albon pits on lap 35.

This looks suspiciously like Bottas is staying out until he's got a small pit-stop cushion over Albon and Red Bull are keeping Albon out in the hopes of making Bottas come out behind him. It might explain Horner's cryptic "He's on a different strategy" comment despite them being on the same tyres.

However, looking at Albon's times form lap 20 to lap 34, they are pretty steady (his lap times decrease by about 1/10th a lap (fuel burning off?)). If he was there as a spoiler, I'd expect him to start turning the car up to try and stay inside of Bottas' window as it gets closer to a 22 second gap (lap 25). Whilst the gap does slow and then reverse, that's not because Albon is suddenly putting the pedal down, it seems to be more a case of Bottas' lap times steadily dropping off as the tyres give up. It feels like Albon being in Bottas pit window was convenient coincidence rather than a premeditated strategy and that Red Bull didn't damage Albon's race significantly in order to take advantage of it.*

*&* I guess the big unknown is whether Red Bull thought it realistic that a Red Bull on old tyres could keep a Merc on fresh tyres behind with three long DRS sectors following tight corners? Given Perez pitted on lap 38 and given the pace of all three of these cars at the end of the race, pitting in the middle of the race looks like a viable strategy regardless of pit windows.

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etusch
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wynters wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 17:45
Apologies to Big Tea for pulling his question into this thread.
Big Tea wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 16:51
This is interesting for those who are wondering where Albon's pace has gone. Is he driving to a plan respective of what he can do? Could he either be regulated by Honda as they would not like both engines to fail, or by the team and left as a 'tail gunner' to assess the true pace of catching cars?

If his job is just to finish a place behind max, he does not have to pace him
I think that if he was being used as a tail gunner, I would expect his race to be defined by Bottas' pit window.

Estimated time loss for a pit stop would be 21-22 seconds (based on the performance on the day). If you can, you probably want a slightly larger cushion, just in case.
- Verstappen pits on lap 24. At this point, the gap between Bottas and Albon is just over 20 seconds
This makes me wonder about whether the threat of an undercut was real. If Bottas pits that lap, he comes out right behind Albon*.

- Bottas goes on to pit on lap 34. It's interesting to note that from lap 24 until lap 34, the gap to Albon increases to 24.6 seconds.
- From 24 to 28, the gap increases by an average of 7.5/10ths per lap.
- From 29 to 33, the gap still increases but the amount it increases by drops steadily from 8/10ths on lap 28, to 2/10s on lap 32 and, on lap 33, Albon actually starts to close. At which point, Bottas pits the next time around at the end of lap 34.
- Albon pits on lap 35.

This looks suspiciously like Bottas is staying out until he's got a small pit-stop cushion over Albon and Red Bull are keeping Albon out in the hopes of making Bottas come out behind him. It might explain Horner's cryptic "He's on a different strategy" comment despite them being on the same tyres.

However, looking at Albon's times form lap 20 to lap 34, they are pretty steady (his lap times decrease by about 1/10th a lap (fuel burning off?)). If he was there as a spoiler, I'd expect him to start turning the car up to try and stay inside of Bottas' window as it gets closer to a 22 second gap (lap 25). Whilst the gap does slow and then reverse, that's not because Albon is suddenly putting the pedal down, it seems to be more a case of Bottas' lap times steadily dropping off as the tyres give up. It feels like Albon being in Bottas pit window was convenient coincidence rather than a premeditated strategy and that Red Bull didn't damage Albon's race significantly in order to take advantage of it.*

*&* I guess the big unknown is whether Red Bull thought it realistic that a Red Bull on old tyres could keep a Merc on fresh tyres behind with three long DRS sectors following tight corners? Given Perez pitted on lap 38 and given the pace of all three of these cars at the end of the race, pitting in the middle of the race looks like a viable strategy regardless of pit windows.
Albon could affect Mercedes strategy by being closer to Bottas and could help Max to finish second.
Different strategy may be expectation on sc. There are many fights at second series and it was a possibility. But didn't happen.

NL_Fer
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Macklaren wrote:
15 Jul 2020, 23:54
etusch wrote:
15 Jul 2020, 22:55

According to the official Formula 1 website, the Red Bull Ring coincides with Spa-Francorchamps and Baku in a list of certain circuits where the MGU-K cannot regain enough energy from braking.

The Red Bull Ring has three long straights with few turns to regenerate energy. As a result, the system temporarily fails and the rider misses an average of 160 hp. Because Honda has a development delay compared to Mercedes, the Honda will drop out earlier than the Mercedes.

Red Bull makes up for lack of MGU-K with less downforce
Some measurements have been taken to address this issue: on the finish line the Mercedes appears to reach 288 kilometers per hour, while the Red Bull records 285 kilometers per hour. At the measuring point a little further on, the Mercedes continues to 317 and Red Bull 306 kilometers per hour: the difference is already starting to increase here.

To compensate for this lack of top speed, Red Bull took downward pressure from Max Verstappen's car. This in turn leads to higher tire degradation. In the end, this is what caused Verstappen's pace to collapse on older tires, allowing Valtteri Bottas to overtake the Red Bull in the end.
https://www.maximumf1.com/formula-1/298 ... fLGGV_yPvw
Why hasn't any of this happened in the last 2 years when RBR dominated this race?
I remember the Mercs were overheating, maybe they had to reduce MGU-K brake recovery, to keep the PU cool. They lost both K in Canada ‘14, because of the hard braking points. Maybe it has always been a critical point of the silver arrow.

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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RBR is no longer dominating at heights as they changed their turbo concept.

McMika98
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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If you look into the data from first race and compare almost all cars are lapping quicker at the beginning, fresh tyres also helped. The only exception was Albon who was slower and in the high 9s, same as midfield. The engine mode seems to give 0.5s in Austria easily but Albon seems to struggle with high fuel loads. He can overtake midfield cars even though they are lot closer but then he seems to dail back after that. Hopefully he starts to push from the beginning. Kinda feel Redbull were saving face by allowing Max to push from the beginning, apparently he didn't have much fuel left.

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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I kinda feel they saved Albon from gettin’ overtaken’ by gimmin Im an higher power mode until he fended off the Perez attack. That seems the more likely conclusion for his sudden jump in speed.

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etusch
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Sieper wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 20:07
RBR is no longer dominating at heights as they changed their turbo concept.
If they are better at low then we ready to accept that.

Brake Horse Power
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Christian Horner mentioned in an interview they had some worries about blistering on a right hand side tire with the soft. That's why they had some conservative lap times.

So Horner says..

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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etusch wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 21:05
Sieper wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 20:07
RBR is no longer dominating at heights as they changed their turbo concept.
If they are better at low then we ready to accept that.
I really, really hope to see that this weekend, please. But Ok, Mercedes has the same concept anD if they are now better on top of the hill they will also be in the valley.

Just_a_fan
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Brake Horse Power wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 22:43
So Horner says..
Yeah, and if a frog had wings it wouldn't drag its arse.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Bill
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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So Rbr spent two stints nursing the tires for two different reasons but are too quick to blame the engine for lack of results.I think they should be mindful of the fact that they don't have an engine deal for next year and beyond.

Ground Effect
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Bill wrote:
17 Jul 2020, 10:07
So Rbr spent two stints nursing the tires for two different reasons but are too quick to blame the engine for lack of results.I think they should be mindful of the fact that they don't have an engine deal for next year and beyond.
They have a deal for next year (2021) but not for beyond.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

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IvailoStefanovBG
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Just watched onboard of Max after SC restart - Styria GP. He was with battery fully charched, max power, boost on and Hamilton flew away yet on ther first straight. For me - Honda PU clearly less powerful than Mercedes. He switched off boost after one lap because it was pointless using it...No chance...