Racing Point RP20

[SmallSoldier]

Will we get this s**t over and done with? The RP20 and W10 might look the same on the outside, but are very different on the inside as we can clearly see on this thread. The front suspension internals are very different. Cooling package is different. They are rather important elements if you ask me.

The different parts you mentioned are listed parts and are supposed to be built by them, otherwise the car would be illegal.

The actual truth is that there is barely anything unique on this car. They copied whatever they could from Mercedes. The stuff they couldn't copy, they recreated to match them as closely as possible, and the stuff that mustn't be copied to stay within the rules, they made themselves.

It's as simple as that. I personally don't like this approach at all, but whether people like it or not doesn't matter at all in my opinion. If what they did is fine with the FIA, then they will get away with it even if all of us don't agree, because at the end of the day, it's the FIA decision that matters the most.

They will be racing with an already proven aero concept. With better understanding of the car, they will be able to extract more out of it. They probably still don't know how that car works. What happens to it under load etc. When they figure that out, and match the mechanical setup accordingly, then I don't see any reason why it shouldn't perform nearly as well as the 2019 Mercedes even with those different bits you mentioned.

Edit: And to be honest, being nearly as fast as the 2019 Mercedes is a huge advantage. That car was an absolute beast, especially in the early part of 2019. The 2019 car is probably good enough to win races this year and if you are anywhere near that car in terms of performance as a midfielder, then you are in for a good season.

Nit picking I agree, but there is nothing that ' mustn't be copied to stay within the rules '. Its that mustn't be designed or manufactured by another competing team. Its not the copying that is the problem its where it was made and designed. Haas have their car built by Dalara and if they completely reverse engineered this years Ferrari and got it built it would be legal. If any of the listed parts actually came from Ferrari, or even were designed by Haas and manufactured by Ferrari that is not allowed.

Not picking on Haas and Ferrari, just using it as a comparison. It could have been Red Bull and STR.

Actually, didn’t Haas had to redesign their brakes for this season because in 2020 they are considered listed parts? In the past, they copied Ferrari’s, this year they had to “design” them in order to make the car legal.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Big Tea]

The different parts you mentioned are listed parts and are supposed to be built by them, otherwise the car would be illegal.

The actual truth is that there is barely anything unique on this car. They copied whatever they could from Mercedes. The stuff they couldn't copy, they recreated to match them as closely as possible, and the stuff that mustn't be copied to stay within the rules, they made themselves.

It's as simple as that. I personally don't like this approach at all, but whether people like it or not doesn't matter at all in my opinion. If what they did is fine with the FIA, then they will get away with it even if all of us don't agree, because at the end of the day, it's the FIA decision that matters the most.

They will be racing with an already proven aero concept. With better understanding of the car, they will be able to extract more out of it. They probably still don't know how that car works. What happens to it under load etc. When they figure that out, and match the mechanical setup accordingly, then I don't see any reason why it shouldn't perform nearly as well as the 2019 Mercedes even with those different bits you mentioned.

Edit: And to be honest, being nearly as fast as the 2019 Mercedes is a huge advantage. That car was an absolute beast, especially in the early part of 2019. The 2019 car is probably good enough to win races this year and if you are anywhere near that car in terms of performance as a midfielder, then you are in for a good season.

Nit picking I agree, but there is nothing that ' mustn't be copied to stay within the rules '. Its that mustn't be designed or manufactured by another competing team. Its not the copying that is the problem its where it was made and designed. Haas have their car built by Dalara and if they completely reverse engineered this years Ferrari and got it built it would be legal. If any of the listed parts actually came from Ferrari, or even were designed by Haas and manufactured by Ferrari that is not allowed.

Not picking on Haas and Ferrari, just using it as a comparison. It could have been Red Bull and STR.

Actually, didn’t Haas had to redesign their brakes for this season because in 2020 they are considered listed parts? In the past, they copied Ferrari’s, this year they had to “design” them in order to make the car legal.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

(I believe) they are still able to copy Ferrari's as long as they are not 'actually' Ferrari's. I do remember something abou t it, but not exactly what

There is a comparitor here https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/raci ... t/4833399/


Edit, apology to other poster dans79, that link is on another page. did not see it until later

[ScrewCaptain27]

Will we get this s**t over and done with? The RP20 and W10 might look the same on the outside, but are very different on the inside as we can clearly see on this thread. The front suspension internals are very different. Cooling package is different. They are rather important elements if you ask me.

Precisely!

The notion that Racing Point did not engineer the structure of the car, cooling system and kinematics of the suspension is preposterous. Even a smaller team like Toro Rosso had a slim nose in 2017 while Red Bull did not, a slim nose is not impossibly difficult to engineer for the crash test. As an experienced F1 team, Racing Point they are more than capable of these things.

What do you mean by front suspension internals? Doesn’t RP buy suspension straight from Mercedes??

Dampers, rockers and anti-roll bars. They are developed independently by RP even though they are listed parts I think. Suspension arms and uprights are from Mercedes.

[ScrewCaptain27]

Will we get this s**t over and done with? The RP20 and W10 might look the same on the outside, but are very different on the inside as we can clearly see on this thread. The front suspension internals are very different. Cooling package is different. They are rather important elements if you ask me.

The different parts you mentioned are listed parts and are supposed to be built by them, otherwise the car would be illegal.

The actual truth is that there is barely anything unique on this car. They copied whatever they could from Mercedes. The stuff they couldn't copy, they recreated to match them as closely as possible, and the stuff that mustn't be copied to stay within the rules, they made themselves.

It's as simple as that. I personally don't like this approach at all, but whether people like it or not doesn't matter at all in my opinion. If what they did is fine with the FIA, then they will get away with it even if all of us don't agree, because at the end of the day, it's the FIA decision that matters the most.

They will be racing with an already proven aero concept. With better understanding of the car, they will be able to extract more out of it. They probably still don't know how that car works. What happens to it under load etc. When they figure that out, and match the mechanical setup accordingly, then I don't see any reason why it shouldn't perform nearly as well as the 2019 Mercedes even with those different bits you mentioned.

Edit: And to be honest, being nearly as fast as the 2019 Mercedes is a huge advantage. That car was an absolute beast, especially in the early part of 2019. The 2019 car is probably good enough to win races this year and if you are anywhere near that car in terms of performance as a midfielder, then you are in for a good season.

As you said, the car itself is not illegal. I do believe they might have obtained some designs through transfer of personnel though. That should be investigated.

[ScrewCaptain27]

Precisely!

The notion that Racing Point did not engineer the structure of the car, cooling system and kinematics of the suspension is preposterous. Even a smaller team like Toro Rosso had a slim nose in 2017 while Red Bull did not, a slim nose is not impossibly difficult to engineer for the crash test. As an experienced F1 team, Racing Point they are more than capable of these things.

What do you mean by front suspension internals? Doesn’t RP buy suspension straight from Mercedes??

Dampers, rockers and anti-roll bars. They are developed independently by RP. Suspension arms and uprights are from Mercedes.

[tangodjango]

Can anyone chime in on how much RP can update the car for next year? Can they change the side impact pods to that of the W11 or is that too substantial to be updated via the token system?

[Blackout]

The side impact structures are not part of the homologated parts list AFAIK, but if you change them you must change the monocoque IMO and that costs two tokens.
And if RP changes the monocoque to adapt these sidepods, they must retain the 2020 cooling system and everything that is under the bodywork.
The bodywork/the aero is updatable for free, except the front impact structure/nose + some small parts.

[tangodjango]

The side impact structures are not part of the homologated parts list AFAIK, but if you change them you must change the monocoque IMO and that costs two tokens.
And if RP changes the monocoque to adapt these sidepods, they must retain the 2020 cooling system and everything that is under the bodywork.
The bodywork/the aero is updatable for free, except the front impact structure/nose + some small parts.

Thanks for the great answer . Since they are a customer team they actually might do that since they don't have to spend tokens on the engine side. Possibly they could retain the cooling since it's hardly likely next year's Merc engine will require more cooling. That would ruffle even more feathers probably since the nose and front is probably similar enough to be made to work with the W11 style sidepods. I wonder what direction they will go in or perhaps they will divert all resources to 2022. Interesting times.

[Racer X]

The side impact structures are not part of the homologated parts list AFAIK, but if you change them you must change the monocoque IMO and that costs two tokens.
And if RP changes the monocoque to adapt these sidepods, they must retain the 2020 cooling system and everything that is under the bodywork.
The bodywork/the aero is updatable for free, except the front impact structure/nose + some small parts.

Thanks for the great answer . Since they are a customer team they actually might do that since they don't have to spend tokens on the engine side. Possibly they could retain the cooling since it's hardly likely next year's Merc engine will require more cooling. That would ruffle even more feathers probably since the nose and front is probably similar enough to be made to work with the W11 style sidepods. I wonder what direction they will go in or perhaps they will divert all resources to 2022. Interesting times.

I mean they could invest this years time developing this years next year car. To give the Aston Martin Mercedes a first season where they are insanely competitive i mean why not since they have been showing great speed so it might be worth it to develop after all this years car.

[hollus]

Lots of posts on the legality or not of the Racing Point car, AKA pink Mercedes. Quite understandable, it might be "the history of this weekend" (and the last, and the next).
I am going to encourage all posters to consider continuing that discussion in the Racing Point team thread:
viewtopic.php?f=15&t=28683&start=225
Where it has been going on in strength for days, where it is on topic and where it can, hopefully, collect al the parallel discussions currently going on.

Let me specify what I mean: If a post is about how similar or not a piece IN THE CAR is to something on the W10 or W11, obviously this, the car thread, is the place, but if it is about the concept of copying or reverse engineering the W10 as a way to go racing, it would be better suited there, in the team thread, then it is a team decision, a philosophical concept, a legal conundrum, but not HARDWARE ON THE CAR.

[michl420]

The front wing even vibrates like the mercedes over kerbs (of course it`s a subjective finding)

[Emag]

Absolutely shocking. Nearly three seconds improvement over last year's car, and a couple of tenths quicker than last year's Mercedes too. (RP would have had a 1-2 last year with this car).

It seems like whatever minor differences this car has with last year's Merc, they just make it quicker than it.

[henry]

Absolutely shocking. Nearly three seconds improvement over last year's car, and a couple of tenths quicker than last year's Mercedes too. (RP would have had a 1-2 last year with this car).

It seems like whatever minor differences this car has with last year's Merc, they just make it quicker than it.

Or maybe the improved performance, over the W10, comes from the power unit?

[aleks_ader]

Absolutely shocking. Nearly three seconds improvement over last year's car, and a couple of tenths quicker than last year's Mercedes too. (RP would have had a 1-2 last year with this car).

It seems like whatever minor differences this car has with last year's Merc, they just make it quicker than it.

Or maybe the improved performance, over the W10, comes from the power unit?

Yeah. I m thinking that also. Ofc usual cave eat like weather and setup is hard to compare. that is still VERY IMPRESSIVE JOB. I m so impressed by copy. All material and bending science must match Mercs. Furthermore all and setup must work with Merc philosophy of rake, floor interaction. All from nose towards all way to back. I would say that Aston Martin team under Green leadership gona be ominous under budget cap.

[MtthsMlw]

Absolutely shocking. Nearly three seconds improvement over last year's car, and a couple of tenths quicker than last year's Mercedes too. (RP would have had a 1-2 last year with this car).

It seems like whatever minor differences this car has with last year's Merc, they just make it quicker than it.

Or maybe the improved performance, over the W10, comes from the power unit?

That and the aero is based on the Abu Dhabi spec so not the same one Merc used last year in Hungary.