[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[zibby43]

Honda can match Mercedes pu even with all that smoke.they were doing around max 312 the Renault 308 and Ferrari 304.fia should look at Mercedes they look to doing what Ferrari was doing last year with oil burning then Honda will take its rightful place as number 1.

Oil burning is legal. Always has been under the regs. The amount was reduced to 0.3 litres per 100km for '20.

[TNTHead]

Honda can match Mercedes pu even with all that smoke.they were doing around max 312 the Renault 308 and Ferrari 304.fia should look at Mercedes they look to doing what Ferrari was doing last year with oil burning then Honda will take its rightful place as number 1.

Oil burning is legal. Always has been under the regs. The amount was reduced to 0.3 litres per 100km for '20.

With such visible blue smoke curtain, I estimate that' s about 100 ml per event. 100 km is 1/3 race distance. So they may smoke 18 times per race. And thats excluding the possible invisible oil burning.
I'm not so sure that they comply with that.

[TNTHead]

I don’t think it’s a mechanical issue at all.

At one of the most aero-sensitive circuits on the calendar, and after another week of back-to-back testing new parts and running different specs from car-to-car, this looks to be an aerodynamic problem.

They actually reverted to pre-season spec today.

If that were the case you'd expect them to be slower in the aero dominant part of the lap not the mechanically dominant part.

Haha my friend, anything that’s not a straight is an aero-sensitive part of the lap on this circuit layout.

If you listen to what the drivers are saying and watch the car’s behavior, it’s pretty apparent that it’s an aero imbalance that’s causing stalling and all kinds of unpredictable behavior.

Anyway, if you don’t believe my take, I just saw this piece come out, and they all (i.e., guys like Straw, Hughes, and Anderson) are also of the opinion that it’s a fundamental aero problem.

I tend to agree, as RB keep changing the aero surfaces of the car, front-to-back.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/how-worr ... r-verdict/

Well, actually you might both be right. In your link Gary Anderson hints at ride height depending on steering input. This may induce aero stalling at different speeds, isn't it?

But it is also possible that there is more than one issue contributing to the instability.

[zibby43]

Honda can match Mercedes pu even with all that smoke.they were doing around max 312 the Renault 308 and Ferrari 304.fia should look at Mercedes they look to doing what Ferrari was doing last year with oil burning then Honda will take its rightful place as number 1.

Oil burning is legal. Always has been under the regs. The amount was reduced to 0.3 litres per 100km for '20.

With such visible blue smoke curtain, I estimate that' s about 100 ml per event. 100 km is 1/3 race distance. So they may smoke 18 times per race. And thats excluding the possible invisible oil burning.
I'm not so sure that they comply with that.

1) Is visually estimating smoke and converting it into a measurable ml amount a real thing?

2) Who says the smoke is even related to oil burning? I was simply clarifying a statement. Oil burning is legal, and it's a separate issue from what Ferrari was doing with the fuel flow sensor and the ERS (although I'm sure there were more tricks).

In any event, the puffs of smoke could simply be oil from an overfill sloshing around and burning off, which is why it happens early in sessions in certain types of corners. And why, due to obvious similarities in packaging, it happens in customer cars as well.

3) None of this talk belongs in this thread.

[etusch]

Honda can match Mercedes pu even with all that smoke.they were doing around max 312 the Renault 308 and Ferrari 304.fia should look at Mercedes they look to doing what Ferrari was doing last year with oil burning then Honda will take its rightful place as number 1.

Oil burning is legal. Always has been under the regs. The amount was reduced to 0.3 litres per 100km for '20.

With such visible blue smoke curtain, I estimate that' s about 100 ml per event. 100 km is 1/3 race distance. So they may smoke 18 times per race. And thats excluding the possible invisible oil burning.
I'm not so sure that they comply with that.

fia revealed there are suspicious things still. but fia will not investigate mercedes fairly. They already said that mercedes is not guilty with Racing Point thing. So racing point stealed all blueprints. Thats incredible.

[etusch]

1) Is visually estimating smoke and converting it into a measurable ml amount a real thing?

2) Who says the smoke is even related to oil burning? I was simply clarifying a statement. Oil burning is legal, and it's a separate issue from what Ferrari was doing with the fuel flow sensor and the ERS (although I'm sure there were more tricks).

estimation can be made by looking smoke amount. This is not certain data but estimation. But most important thing is that first fuel flow limit in the rules bans oil burning without any regulations made after redbull question. Rules limit fuel flow so limits amount of fuel be able to burn at a given time. But then someone burns something else as fuel just by naming it oil. İf that limit doesn't ban burning more than the limited fuel then you can put second fuel tank but naming it air tank and puting inside fuel but naming it as coolent liquid. No no. it is just fia's unfair and uncompetent aproach.
And if there is not any rule to specify what is fuel ( gasoline) then you can use many thing. But if it is gasoline then you can't. If this kind of engines burns oil naturally, it must keep burning it naturally but not intentionally.

[Bill]

Oil burning is not legal its incidental because you can't get rid out it because engine needs oil for lubrication but tricks like channeling cooling oil from mguh into combustion chamber is forbidden.they are other tricky that we don't know about some have been clarified with technical directives

Mercedes knows fia is boxed by letting Ferrari go scout free they are toothless.mercedes + Rbr was very vocal about Ferrari Fia deal.i just wonder what sweeteners did Fia give to Merc to silence them.

[TNTHead]

Oil burning is legal. Always has been under the regs. The amount was reduced to 0.3 litres per 100km for '20.

With such visible blue smoke curtain, I estimate that' s about 100 ml per event. 100 km is 1/3 race distance. So they may smoke 18 times per race. And thats excluding the possible invisible oil burning.
I'm not so sure that they comply with that.

1) Is visually estimating smoke and converting it into a measurable ml amount a real thing?

2) Who says the smoke is even related to oil burning? I was simply clarifying a statement. Oil burning is legal, and it's a separate issue from what Ferrari was doing with the fuel flow sensor and the ERS (although I'm sure there were more tricks).

In any event, the puffs of smoke could simply be oil from an overfill sloshing around and burning off, which is why it happens early in sessions in certain types of corners. And why, due to obvious similarities in packaging, it happens in customer cars as well.

3) None of this talk belongs in this thread.

Of course we dont have a definitive answer, but you were implying that oil burning is legal suggesting that all is well. Indeed we dont know anything yet. But known is that blue smoke is oil burned, where ever it may come from.

[Wouter]

https://www.yr.no/place/Hungary/Budapest/Budapest/hour_by_ho ur.html

Adam Cooper @adamcooperF1
17 m
A wet and grey day in Budapest, big storm this morning.
Not raining now but looks like it will come and go all day:

[JordanMugen]

I think Gary Anderson is right, it makes a lot of sense.

Rear end aero instability, so the team add lots of rear wing, but that doesn't fix the underlying problem. It makes the underlying problem of the rear aero stalling when steering angle is added even worse, since now the car understeers a lot and needs even more steering angle, and so this causes the sudden snaps.

It also explains why Red Bull are OK at fast, short duration corners that don't need much steering angle, but struggle at medium to slow speed long corners that need lots of steering angle of which there are so many at the Hungaroring.

I wonder if it's related to the new cape, perhaps moreso than the new front suspension? If it is just the cape, Red Bull could take the cape off as a short-term fix, which would be relatively easy and cheap fix to implement, wouldn't it? It would be undoing their development, but at least the car would be drivable again...

They could either keep the narrow nose, or use a non-structural vanity cover to restore it to last season's wide nose. AlphaTauri doesn't have the cape, still uses the wide nose, and they seem to have a far more drivable car...

[etusch]

I think Gary Anderson is right, it makes a lot of sense.

Rear end aero instability, so the team add lots of rear wing, but that doesn't fix the underlying problem. It makes the underlying problem of the rear aero stalling when steering angle is added even worse, since now the car understeers a lot and needs even more steering angle, and so this causes the sudden snaps.

It also explains why Red Bull are OK at fast, short duration corners that don't need much steering angle, but struggle at medium to slow speed long corners that need lots of steering angle of which there are so many at the Hungaroring.

I wonder if it's related to the new cape, perhaps moreso than the new front suspension? If it is just the cape, Red Bull could take the cape off as a short-term fix, which would be relatively easy and cheap fix to implement, wouldn't it? It would be undoing their development, but at least the car would be drivable again...

They could either keep the narrow nose, or use a non-structural vanity cover to restore it to last season's wide nose. AlphaTauri doesn't have the cape, still uses the wide nose, and they seem to have a far more drivable car...

What I think is if they have a go extreme and try new things which have potential but need time to perfect them, then sacrifice this season and be champion next season.

[Mansell89]

Almost afraid to say this out loud but the RBR of 2020 behaves a little bit like the Williams of 1994.

It has inherent pace but it’s unstable.

[godlameroso]

I think Gary Anderson is right, it makes a lot of sense.

Rear end aero instability, so the team add lots of rear wing, but that doesn't fix the underlying problem. It makes the underlying problem of the rear aero stalling when steering angle is added even worse, since now the car understeers a lot and needs even more steering angle, and so this causes the sudden snaps.

It also explains why Red Bull are OK at fast, short duration corners that don't need much steering angle, but struggle at medium to slow speed long corners that need lots of steering angle of which there are so many at the Hungaroring.

I wonder if it's related to the new cape, perhaps moreso than the new front suspension? If it is just the cape, Red Bull could take the cape off as a short-term fix, which would be relatively easy and cheap fix to implement, wouldn't it? It would be undoing their development, but at least the car would be drivable again...

They could either keep the narrow nose, or use a non-structural vanity cover to restore it to last season's wide nose. AlphaTauri doesn't have the cape, still uses the wide nose, and they seem to have a far more drivable car...

You're describing 100% a bad toe curve. Every car has one, the toe changes as the suspension is loaded. As load increases toe tends to become positive to help grip, but if it goes positive too much it adds understeer in a non linear way. This makes the car twitchy at the limit, going from oversteer on entry to understeer mid corner, back to oversteer on corner exit. Just really inconsistent steering behavior that's almost impossible to drive around unless you have hours of seat time.

Bend a control arm or suspension upright on your track car and see how consistent your handling becomes. Your suspension geometry is all out of whack. It also happens when kids lower their car for looks, they end up ruining the handling because the toe curve does funny things due to altered suspension geometry.

Maybe a benefit of DAS is that it lets you alter the toe curve.

[HPD]

Has Honda had to adjust its power unit at the request of the FIA? "No, Mercedes has just taken a big step. We are certainly not affected by the FIA rules," said Verstappen.

"The engine feels normal, as it always has and it feels good. It is certainly no worse than last year's engine. We definitely have more power than last year," Verstappen told RacingNews365 when asked.
https://racingnews365.nl/verstappen-wee ... t-door-fia

[tangodjango]

I think Gary Anderson is right, it makes a lot of sense.

Rear end aero instability, so the team add lots of rear wing, but that doesn't fix the underlying problem. It makes the underlying problem of the rear aero stalling when steering angle is added even worse, since now the car understeers a lot and needs even more steering angle, and so this causes the sudden snaps.

It also explains why Red Bull are OK at fast, short duration corners that don't need much steering angle, but struggle at medium to slow speed long corners that need lots of steering angle of which there are so many at the Hungaroring.

I wonder if it's related to the new cape, perhaps moreso than the new front suspension? If it is just the cape, Red Bull could take the cape off as a short-term fix, which would be relatively easy and cheap fix to implement, wouldn't it? It would be undoing their development, but at least the car would be drivable again...

They could either keep the narrow nose, or use a non-structural vanity cover to restore it to last season's wide nose. AlphaTauri doesn't have the cape, still uses the wide nose, and they seem to have a far more drivable car...

What I think is if they have a go extreme and try new things which have potential but need time to perfect them, then sacrifice this season and be champion next season.

They almost have zero chance in 2021 even if they find half a second through understanding the platform alone in the next few races. It's better to get the car to a roughly decent place and then put all their chips in for 2022. Mercedes probably have major developments planned for next season already in the pipeline let alone upgrades for next season..