[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Wynters]

In the race Verstappen was .366 off the pace.

This has been shown to be innaccurate before. Please don't continue to peddle it as fact as it gives people a false impression.

Verstappen has been manhandling Bottas for the last 3 seasons. It's not like I'm drawing from a small sample size.

In races they both finished, how often did Vertstappen finish ahead of Bottas last season? What were their respective WDC totals?

Same questions for 2017.

Nope more like 66-11(given Mercedes was just toodling around till then)=55. So adding 5-6 seconds for the time lost by staying out significantly longer than Verstappen it's more like 30/55 ~ 0.5 seconds per lap which means after all their upgrades, specifically at Barcelona RBR were half a second of race pace from Hamilton while Mercedes had no updates apart from brake duct modifications.

It's very hard to make this sort of extrapolation without good tyre data. If you have it available and could share it, I'd greatly appreciate it.

***
Hopefully, the technical directives will bring the cars closer together, particularly in qualifying. Verstappen has done very well to keep Hamilton within threat range and a Red Bull on the front row of the grid each race would spice things up nicely. If it can close the race gap as well, then it might actually be game on for a decent championshp.

[godlameroso]

Nope more like 66-11(given Mercedes was just toodling around till then)=55. So adding 5-6 seconds for the time lost by staying out significantly longer than Verstappen it's more like 30/55 ~ 0.5 seconds per lap which means after all their upgrades, specifically at Barcelona RBR were half a second of race pace from Hamilton while Mercedes had no updates apart from brake duct modifications.

Whatever you say. You can't just exclude laps from a race because it suits your argument. There were no unplanned stops they stopped an equal amount of times. That is the gap, .3 is the gap between Bottas and Hamilton. Meaning there's no real gap between Bottas and Verstappen, result? Verstappen beats Bottas 5/6 times so far.

You can cherry-pick all you like by incorrectly extrapolating lap time difference, it won't magically make Red Bull catch up to Mercedes.

No magic involved. Maybe a magician or two. There is no incorrect extrapolation. You incorrectly assume that Mercedes can go faster. That isn't even logically consistent with anything we've seen. Is Mercedes faster? Of course, are they half a second faster? Not really, if the fuel or tires don't let you go faster, then you're not faster than the pace you show.

[godlameroso]

In the race Verstappen was .366 off the pace.

This has been shown to be innaccurate before. Please don't continue to peddle it as fact as it gives people a false impression.

Verstappen has been manhandling Bottas for the last 3 seasons. It's not like I'm drawing from a small sample size.

In races they both finished, how often did Vertstappen finish ahead of Bottas last season? What were their respective WDC totals?

Same questions for 2017.
***
Hopefully, the technical directives will bring the cars closer together, particularly in qualifying. Verstappen has done very well to keep Hamilton within threat range and a Red Bull on the front row of the grid each race would spice things up nicely. If it can close the race gap as well, then it might actually be game on for a decent championshp.

Please don't pretend to be the arbiter of truth. It's distasteful and childish. That half second figure has been debunked by everyone in the paddock. The only track where they had that kind of gap was Hungary.

If you want to see how many times Verstappen finished ahead of Bottas? It's right there, results in black and white for everyone to see.

[Wynters]

No magic involved. Maybe a magician or two. There is no incorrect extrapolation. You incorrectly assume that Mercedes can go faster.

Hamilton was 1.2 seconds slower on his last lap than his previous string of laps. Did he misjudge his tyre and/or fuel? What evidence do you have that his tyres went off a cliff/he had to save fuel so extremely?

At the previous race, Hamilton was 1.8 seconds slower on his final lap. Did he misjudge his tyre and/or fuel? What evidence do you have that his tyres went off a cliff/he had to save fuel so extremely?

Why does your calculation deliberately exclude the time the Red Bull gained in the pitstops. You are measuring Verstappen's pace, not pitstop pace, so why include these extra seconds under the 'Verstappen's pace' heading.

That isn't even logically consistent with anything we've seen.

Radio traffic for multiple teams show that, if they have a huge cushion at the front, then they aren't running their most powerful engine modes. Similarly, you can track tyre / fuel drop off over the final stint and see if they were going all out. If they are using up every millimetre of tyre and ounce of fuel, why are they often able to have a go at fastest lap in the closing stages of the race? Surely they are already going the fastest they could go and, even if they could extract moree from the car, they are damaging their pace for the remainder of the race by taking so much out for use in just a single lap?

The idea that drivers are pushing all the time, even if they are alone in the distance out front is absolutely inconsistent with all the commentary from teams, drivers and analysts that emphasise preservation over unnecessary performance.

[Wynters]

Please don't pretend to be the arbiter of truth. It's distasteful and childish. That half second figure has been debunked by everyone in the paddock. The only track where they had that kind of gap was Hungary.

It's a fact that Verstappen gained more than 2 seconds over Hamilton thanks to pitstops. It's also a fact that this has been pointed out to you. You've provided no justification for your continued claims that those seconds were due to 'Verstappen's pace' but you continue to claim them as such. Why?

You also continue to put words into my mouth. Why?

If you want to see how many times Verstappen finished ahead of Bottas? It's right there, results in black and white for everyone to see.

Five times in 2017, Verstappen finished 147 points behind him.
Five time in 2019, Verstappen finished 48 points behind him.

"Manhandled"?

2018 and this year are far more solid support for your point. It wouldn't have detracted from it in any way if you'd simply limited your claim to this year and 2018. Why claim years that undermine it?

[etusch]

Red Bull has faith that its high rake concept is still the right way to go, despite some rivals suggesting it may have reached its limit of performance

.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... n=widget-1

[SmallSoldier]

In the race Verstappen was .366 off the pace.

This has been shown to be innaccurate before. Please don't continue to peddle it as fact as it gives people a false impression.

Verstappen has been manhandling Bottas for the last 3 seasons. It's not like I'm drawing from a small sample size.

In races they both finished, how often did Vertstappen finish ahead of Bottas last season? What were their respective WDC totals?

Same questions for 2017.
***
Hopefully, the technical directives will bring the cars closer together, particularly in qualifying. Verstappen has done very well to keep Hamilton within threat range and a Red Bull on the front row of the grid each race would spice things up nicely. If it can close the race gap as well, then it might actually be game on for a decent championshp.

Please don't pretend to be the arbiter of truth. It's distasteful and childish. That half second figure has been debunked by everyone in the paddock. The only track where they had that kind of gap was Hungary.

If you want to see how many times Verstappen finished ahead of Bottas? It's right there, results in black and white for everyone to see.

The pot calling the kettle black?


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[SmallSoldier]

Whatever you say. You can't just exclude laps from a race because it suits your argument. There were no unplanned stops they stopped an equal amount of times. That is the gap, .3 is the gap between Bottas and Hamilton. Meaning there's no real gap between Bottas and Verstappen, result? Verstappen beats Bottas 5/6 times so far.

You can cherry-pick all you like by incorrectly extrapolating lap time difference, it won't magically make Red Bull catch up to Mercedes.

No magic involved. Maybe a magician or two. There is no incorrect extrapolation. You incorrectly assume that Mercedes can go faster. That isn't even logically consistent with anything we've seen. Is Mercedes faster? Of course, are they half a second faster? Not really, if the fuel or tires don't let you go faster, then you're not faster than the pace you show.

And you are incorrectly assuming that Mercedes can’t go faster... While the impression of everyone is that once Mercedes (Hamilton) is at the front, he just manages his pace (therefore not going as fast as he can) just to save engine mileage... While Max seems to be getting everything he can out of the RBR to keep up with him.


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[Wynters]

And you are incorrectly assuming that Mercedes can’t go faster... While the impression of everyone is that once Mercedes (Hamilton) is at the front, he just manages his pace (therefore not going as fast as he can) just to save engine mileage... While Max seems to be getting everything he can out of the RBR to keep up with him.

I think Verstappen is also cruising when he has the chance. For his win, there's radio conversation with his engineer about whether he would be in Mode 8 until the end or Mode 10. Engineer wanted Mode 8, Verstappen wanted more and got Mode 10. Pretty sure neither of them are 'Push' modes.

In this GP, I suspect Verstappen was managing his pace to see just what Bottas had to offer. When Bottas couldn't close on him, Verstappen's pace stayed consistently in the high 1:21s / low 1:22s suggesting that he wasn't pushing abnormally but was comfortable at that pace to the end. If he was burning engine life / tyre life I would expect to see him ease off to avoid taking any risks, extend the life of his components and leave something in reserve in case of a late Safety Car.

[SmallSoldier]

And you are incorrectly assuming that Mercedes can’t go faster... While the impression of everyone is that once Mercedes (Hamilton) is at the front, he just manages his pace (therefore not going as fast as he can) just to save engine mileage... While Max seems to be getting everything he can out of the RBR to keep up with him.

I think Verstappen is also cruising when he has the chance. For his win, there's radio conversation with his engineer about whether he would be in Mode 8 until the end or Mode 10. Engineer wanted Mode 8, Verstappen wanted more and got Mode 10. Pretty sure neither of them are 'Push' modes.

In this GP, I suspect Verstappen was managing his pace to see just what Bottas had to offer. When Bottas couldn't close on him, Verstappen's pace stayed consistently in the high 1:21s / low 1:22s suggesting that he wasn't pushing abnormally but was comfortable at that pace to the end. If he was burning engine life / tyre life I would expect to see him ease off to avoid taking any risks, extend the life of his components and leave something in reserve in case of a late Safety Car.

I would agree with that... I was watching the lap times and at least Hamilton was capable of opening up a gap when he wanted.

The reality is that taking the time delta at the end of the race and dividing it by the amount of laps doesn’t give you the gap between teams.

At the end if the gap is 0.3, 0.5 or 1.0 second, it really doesn’t matter... Mercedes has a considerable pace advantage and that’s all we can really tell so far this season (unless there is an abnormal situation as with Silverstone 2)


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[Sieper]

Exactly, it was very clear that after Max’ first stint tires were used up he was no longer racing Hamilton. I think he made that abundantly clearly the radio. A bit too clear. So the pace analysis should take into count He Too was “cruising” which he also stated he did post race.

This time around they didn’t get the set up right for the tire usage, at least, not on the reds. Plus he was forced into the wake off Lewis offcourse in that firs stint.

[lio007]

https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... -engagiert

Marko:
- Newey is contributing more to the RB16 development than he has in the past.
- Part of the reason is the Token system in 2021. Whatever they gain now will be useful in 2021 as well.
- He concedes the design team is constantly assessing their rake concept. Since Newey thinks it's "the most efficient solution", they won't change it, though.
- Team is hyped and very motivated: the repair job in Hungary and three 2-s-pitstops in Spain were unbelievable

[diffuser]

And you are incorrectly assuming that Mercedes can’t go faster... While the impression of everyone is that once Mercedes (Hamilton) is at the front, he just manages his pace (therefore not going as fast as he can) just to save engine mileage... While Max seems to be getting everything he can out of the RBR to keep up with him.

I think Verstappen is also cruising when he has the chance. For his win, there's radio conversation with his engineer about whether he would be in Mode 8 until the end or Mode 10. Engineer wanted Mode 8, Verstappen wanted more and got Mode 10. Pretty sure neither of them are 'Push' modes.

In this GP, I suspect Verstappen was managing his pace to see just what Bottas had to offer. When Bottas couldn't close on him, Verstappen's pace stayed consistently in the high 1:21s / low 1:22s suggesting that he wasn't pushing abnormally but was comfortable at that pace to the end. If he was burning engine life / tyre life I would expect to see him ease off to avoid taking any risks, extend the life of his components and leave something in reserve in case of a late Safety Car.

I would agree with that... I was watching the lap times and at least Hamilton was capable of opening up a gap when he wanted.

The reality is that taking the time delta at the end of the race and dividing it by the amount of laps doesn’t give you the gap between teams.

At the end if the gap is 0.3, 0.5 or 1.0 second, it really doesn’t matter... Mercedes has a considerable pace advantage and that’s all we can really tell so far this season (unless there is an abnormal situation as with Silverstone 2)


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I'm not sure I understand what was the point of that whole conversations. Sounds like you were bickering about stuff that can't be proven 1 way or the other?

[Wouter]

10 Fun Things About Alex
Things you didn’t know, and perhaps didn’t want to know, about driver #23.

https://www.redbull.com/int-en/redbullr ... about-alex

[godlameroso]

No magic involved. Maybe a magician or two. There is no incorrect extrapolation. You incorrectly assume that Mercedes can go faster.

Hamilton was 1.2 seconds slower on his last lap than his previous string of laps. Did he misjudge his tyre and/or fuel? What evidence do you have that his tyres went off a cliff/he had to save fuel so extremely?

At the previous race, Hamilton was 1.8 seconds slower on his final lap. Did he misjudge his tyre and/or fuel? What evidence do you have that his tyres went off a cliff/he had to save fuel so extremely?

Why does your calculation deliberately exclude the time the Red Bull gained in the pitstops. You are measuring Verstappen's pace, not pitstop pace, so why include these extra seconds under the 'Verstappen's pace' heading.

That isn't even logically consistent with anything we've seen.

Radio traffic for multiple teams show that, if they have a huge cushion at the front, then they aren't running their most powerful engine modes. Similarly, you can track tyre / fuel drop off over the final stint and see if they were going all out. If they are using up every millimetre of tyre and ounce of fuel, why are they often able to have a go at fastest lap in the closing stages of the race? Surely they are already going the fastest they could go and, even if they could extract moree from the car, they are damaging their pace for the remainder of the race by taking so much out for use in just a single lap?

The idea that drivers are pushing all the time, even if they are alone in the distance out front is absolutely inconsistent with all the commentary from teams, drivers and analysts that emphasise preservation over unnecessary performance.

It's a team sport. Please drivers will drive to the extent of their abilities all race. You cannot afford mistakes. Are you new to f1?

You have a limited quantity of fuel, you cannot use the most aggressive engine modes for even 1/4th of the race. Energy must be allocated efficiently. If a team gains in the pit stops that counts. Everything counts towards total race time.