Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[godlameroso]

Toto never lies

[ispano6]

They rushed forward a second specification, which ended up only being half what they wanted to bring, which was the reliability side anyway, no announced performance gain.
It wouldn't matter anyway as they didn't introduce it mid-season as a "reliability upgrade", it was rushed to make the first race of the season. So it's not suspect at all.

If anything, the fact Mercedes burned through their first MGU-K on all six cars smells a little odd to me (and no they are not in the pool for any of them, they are all expired).

I found it suspicious when Honda made a comment after winter testing, that the Mercedes MGUK was particularly "robust." Very unusual of them to be specific like that about an opponent's engine. What robust is meant there is anyone's guess. We didn't hear Helmut Marko bleating about it, so likely Honda is still monitoring it, trying to understand what is exactly happening. Then again, maybe they silently protested it, and now we hear of the qualifying mode ban and the "ERS gate" that is supposedly coming soon.

All conjecture. You are simply trying to make Honda look suspicious of SOMETHING. In the video I posted Asaki specifically mentions that he believes Honda has caught and surpasses Mercedes (and vice versa) turbo performance from race to race (atmosphere). It's neck and neck. Asaki is specifically saying thermal efficiency which comes down to the ICE and the expensive materials that will(or would have) allow(ed) the PU to be run at higher limits.

[Big Tea]

Toto never lies

He did once, he said he was going to cheat.

[zibby43]

The FIA have been triggered to act because Ferrari are getting routinely beat by midfield and customer teams. I say let them reap what they sowed, but the FIA/FOM will never let that happen in a year where they’ve lost nearly $100m and need as many eyeballs on TV rooting for Ferrari.

you do repeat your self alot about how great mercs are ,how they are the most efficiency among all etc etc
can you explain if the FIA only act now because Ferrari are getting routinely beat by midfield ,why they hampered Ferrari in the first place ? couldn't they tell Ferrari hey detune your PU by 20 hp and hushhh don't tell any one
can you explain why FIA didn't take away points from Racing point(more than 15) or dsq them from races ?!!
can you explain how mercs can qualify 1.1s ahead of RBR Honda although few months ago they were qualifying with a different of 1 to 2 tenths.
isn't it clear as sun shine the abnormality of the Mercedes power unit behavior ?, if you see Mercedes qualifying in SPA
with only 1 or 2 tenths ahead of RBR Honda and Hamilton can no longer cruise away in races (due to the FIA current investigation) will you admit the wrong doing of Mercedes or you will still defend them blindly...

The FIA also could've stripped Ferrari of all their results and prize money for 2019, but they didn't. Instead, they got a private settlement.

Re: RP (which has nothing to do with this thread), they did actually lose points, unlike Ferrari. And Renault dropped the appeal today, which to me seems like a tacit admission that RP exploited a loophole/unregulated area in the regulations, and now Renault are satisfied that it will be closed going foward.

Re: Merc's pace. Yes. They're faster in every type of corner compared to Red Bull this year, which accounts for the vast majority of the gap.

Out of the 7+ tenths gap in qualifying in Barcelona, about 5-6 tenths came from superior cornering performance.



Mercedes' performance increase this year relative to the midfield is virtually identical to past seasons. Which suggests that they did NOT make a huge performance step this year, relative to other years.

Which is also contrary to what GhostF1 has been claiming.

Red Bull and Ferrari fell back. Did they get their car builds wrong? Or did those PU-related TDs affect Honda and Ferrari more? Things that make you go "Hmmmm."

"Nothing has been able to touch the Mercedes W11 in the first three races. No other car has qualified within 0.5sec of it and its advantage at the last race was 0.9sec. But the notable thing is that it isn’t any further clear of the midfield than was last year’s car, as the figures below illustrate.

Qualifying pace average deficit of McLaren/Renault/R Point to Mercedes
2019 – 1.972 per cent
2020 to date – 1.771 per cent"

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... -f1-rivals

Next?

[1158]

So wait. RP which was 1.2 seconds off Merc at Hungary in 2019 yet was faster than Merc in Q1 at Hungary in 2020 didn't improve any on Merc?

BTW have to compare Q1 because RP couldn't get out of Q1...

Oh but wait, Hungary isn't a power track. Lets look at Silverstone.

RP (again Q1 because...) Also have to use Stroll because of Sergio's COVID so... Stroll 1.2 second off the Mercs in Q1 in 2019, 4 tenths off in 2020. I guess that's not really any improvement, huh.

I guess RP didn't need to cause the big copying rukus then, because they clearly are no closer to the front than they were last year...

Based on TR 2019 vs 2020 I don't think Honda was affected by last years TD. Additionally why would RB ask for a clarification that was going to have a negative affect on their PU. Merc had the info and did nothing with it. RB pushed for the clarification? Do you think RB wanted to have power taken from the Honda PU?

All of that said, I don't think Merc are cheating. They may be operating in a gray area that is undefined, they may not. I don't think Merc would blatantly cheat as Ferrari are suspected of doing. They don't need to. One of the best drivers in the world, a magnificent PU and a chassis that does not get enough credit.

[PlatinumZealot]

All conjecture. You are simply trying to make Honda look suspicious of SOMETHING. In the video I posted Asaki specifically mentions that he believes Honda has caught and surpasses Mercedes (and vice versa) turbo performance from race to race (atmosphere). It's neck and neck. Asaki is specifically saying thermal efficiency which comes down to the ICE and the expensive materials that will(or would have) allow(ed) the PU to be run at higher limits.

Nope. Not talking about that video. I am talking about winter testing comments! You have to search for those set of videos/quotes and you will see what is said there.

[tangodjango]

So wait. RP which was 1.2 seconds off Merc at Hungary in 2019 yet was faster than Merc in Q1 at Hungary in 2020 didn't improve any on Merc?

BTW have to compare Q1 because RP couldn't get out of Q1...

Oh but wait, Hungary isn't a power track. Lets look at Silverstone.

RP (again Q1 because...) Also have to use Stroll because of Sergio's COVID so... Stroll 1.2 second off the Mercs in Q1 in 2019, 4 tenths off in 2020. I guess that's not really any improvement, huh.

I guess RP didn't need to cause the big copying rukus then, because they clearly are no closer to the front than they were last year...

Based on TR 2019 vs 2020 I don't think Honda was affected by last years TD. Additionally why would RB ask for a clarification that was going to have an negative affect on their PU. Merc had the info and did nothing with it. RB pushed for the clarification? Do you think RB wanted to have power taken from the Honda PU?

All of that said, I don't think Merc are cheating. They may be operating in a gray area that is undefined, they may not. I don't think Merc would blatantly cheat as Ferrari are suspected of doing. They don't need to. One of the best drivers in the world, a magnificent PU and a chassis that does not get enough credit.

I think it's widely accepted their chassis has been the undisputed benchmark since late 2018.

[1158]

I think it's widely accepted their chassis has been the undisputed benchmark since late 2018.

Here yes, but it always seems to be PU hype in the media (not that the PU isn't worthy). At least that's how it seems to me.

[zibby43]

So wait. RP which was 1.2 seconds off Merc at Hungary in 2019 yet was faster than Merc in Q1 at Hungary in 2020 didn't improve any on Merc?

BTW have to compare Q1 because RP couldn't get out of Q1...

Oh but wait, Hungary isn't a power track. Lets look at Silverstone.

RP (again Q1 because...) Also have to use Stroll because of Sergio's COVID so... Stroll 1.2 second off the Mercs in Q1 in 2019, 4 tenths off in 2020. I guess that's not really any improvement, huh.

I guess RP didn't need to cause the big copying rukus then, because they clearly are no closer to the front than they were last year...

Based on TR 2019 vs 2020 I don't think Honda was affected by last years TD. Additionally why would RB ask for a clarification that was going to have a negative affect on their PU. Merc had the info and did nothing with it. RB pushed for the clarification? Do you think RB wanted to have power taken from the Honda PU?

All of that said, I don't think Merc are cheating. They may be operating in a gray area that is undefined, they may not. I don't think Merc would blatantly cheat as Ferrari are suspected of doing. They don't need to. One of the best drivers in the world, a magnificent PU and a chassis that does not get enough credit.

First of all, that data crunched by Mark Hughes included the Hungarian Grand Prix. And that data was a response to the claims that Mercedes made some kind of other-worldly gains relative to the entire field for the '20 season. When in reality, their gains relative to the midfield are in step with what Mercedes does year-on-year.

The outliers are Red Bull and Ferrari. Scott Mitchell also has an article on this.

Second, why cherry-pick Racing Point and ignore Renault and McLaren? Did you think my bringing up that data had anything to do with RP? Because that wasn't the point.

And then why pick Q1, where Mercedes take significantly less out of their tires in their laps relative to the entire field (heck, they still do that in Q2)? It's going to be an unreliable data point when it comes to outright pace.

Austria (power track) 2020

Relative to Mercedes 2019 (lap times converted into a percentage of the fastest single lap of the qualifying sessions, courtesy of Gary Anderson)

McLaren: -0.714%

Racing Point: -0.701%

Red Bull: +0.376%

[ispano6]

All conjecture. You are simply trying to make Honda look suspicious of SOMETHING. In the video I posted Asaki specifically mentions that he believes Honda has caught and surpasses Mercedes (and vice versa) turbo performance from race to race (atmosphere). It's neck and neck. Asaki is specifically saying thermal efficiency which comes down to the ICE and the expensive materials that will(or would have) allow(ed) the PU to be run at higher limits.

Nope. Not talking about that video. I am talking about winter testing comments! You have to search for those set of videos/quotes and you will see what is said there.

I really doubt that Tanabe or Yamamoto would have used the word "robust". That's your wording, is it not?
You should post the video or quotes if you're so sure about what was said and what made you suspicious. What are your suspicions regarding Honda's comments? Are you insinuating that the usage of the word "robust" was used in the context of being "suspect"? The MGUK is limited in its output and Honda has already maximized it so your comment about the MGUK lacks both evidence or intent. What are you trying to say? That Honda wanted to copy Mercedes' cheat codes or ERS mapping or that they were looking for a way to cheat?

[1158]

So wait. RP which was 1.2 seconds off Merc at Hungary in 2019 yet was faster than Merc in Q1 at Hungary in 2020 didn't improve any on Merc?

BTW have to compare Q1 because RP couldn't get out of Q1...

Oh but wait, Hungary isn't a power track. Lets look at Silverstone.

RP (again Q1 because...) Also have to use Stroll because of Sergio's COVID so... Stroll 1.2 second off the Mercs in Q1 in 2019, 4 tenths off in 2020. I guess that's not really any improvement, huh.

I guess RP didn't need to cause the big copying rukus then, because they clearly are no closer to the front than they were last year...

Based on TR 2019 vs 2020 I don't think Honda was affected by last years TD. Additionally why would RB ask for a clarification that was going to have a negative affect on their PU. Merc had the info and did nothing with it. RB pushed for the clarification? Do you think RB wanted to have power taken from the Honda PU?

All of that said, I don't think Merc are cheating. They may be operating in a gray area that is undefined, they may not. I don't think Merc would blatantly cheat as Ferrari are suspected of doing. They don't need to. One of the best drivers in the world, a magnificent PU and a chassis that does not get enough credit.

First of all, that data crunched by Mark Hughes included the Hungarian Grand Prix. And that data was a response to the claims that Mercedes made some kind of other-worldly gains relative to the entire field for the '20 season. When in reality, their gains relative to the midfield are in step with what Mercedes does year-on-year.

The outliers are Red Bull and Ferrari. Scott Mitchell also has an article on this.

Second, why cherry-pick Racing Point and ignore Renault and McLaren? Did you think my bringing up that data had anything to do with RP? Because that wasn't the point.

And then why pick Q1, where Mercedes take significantly less out of their tires in their laps relative to the entire field (heck, they still do that in Q2)? It's going to be an unreliable data point when it comes to outright pace.

Austria (power track) 2020

Relative to Mercedes 2019 (lap times converted into a percentage of the fastest single lap of the qualifying sessions, courtesy of Gary Anderson)

McLaren: -0.714%

Racing Point: -0.701%

Red Bull: +0.376%

I picked RP because the were a huge change, which would help offset any less improvement by McLaren and Reno. And second because I spent 20 minutes looking up just the RP stuff and seeing what the patterns were. I'm not gonna spend another 40ish minutes doing so with someone that has an agenda and not an open mind.

I had to pick Q1 because RP didn't make it out of Q1 last year. You can't compare Q3 and Q1 even from the same weekend. Track and weather conditions can change significantly.

I'm done. I'm not even gonna bother reading any more of your posts.

Funny if TR isn't an outlier yet they are powered by Honda...

Again, don't bother replying. I'm just gonna say we will never agree.

[PlatinumZealot]

All conjecture. You are simply trying to make Honda look suspicious of SOMETHING. In the video I posted Asaki specifically mentions that he believes Honda has caught and surpasses Mercedes (and vice versa) turbo performance from race to race (atmosphere). It's neck and neck. Asaki is specifically saying thermal efficiency which comes down to the ICE and the expensive materials that will(or would have) allow(ed) the PU to be run at higher limits.

Nope. Not talking about that video. I am talking about winter testing comments! You have to search for those set of videos/quotes and you will see what is said there.

I really doubt that Tanabe or Yamamoto would have used the word "robust". That's your wording, is it not?
You should post the video or quotes if you're so sure about what was said and what made you suspicious. What are your suspicions regarding Honda's comments? Are you insinuating that the usage of the word "robust" was used in the context of being "suspect"? The MGUK is limited in its output and Honda has already maximized it so your comment about the MGUK lacks both evidence or intent. What are you trying to say? That Honda wanted to copy Mercedes' cheat codes or ERS mapping or that they were looking for a way to cheat?

I have been following the Honda engine since inception so I take very careful note of what is said.

I am going to make an edit here.

I just found the quote! But it is not from Tanabe or Asaki! It is from a japanese Honda insider. I cannot share here! But it can be googled!

[GhostF1]

Your comment, not another thing, remembered me last year's cars Q performance which are using Ferrari Pu

For sure! All Ferrari teams had a step forward in one lap pace that was significantly above what they did during the race (even race were strong though), it's the same scenario with Mercedes teams this year.
We can get as conspiratorial as we want, this is a discussion platform, so why not..

Last year Andy Cowell said at their current level, their 2019 PU was pushing the boundaries and the gains are much smaller now with each step and each further push becomes riskier (this was evident last year with a lot of failures across Williams and Racing Point), so it takes an extraordinary amount of work to find performance now. This year, we see Mercedes have made arguably one of their biggest gain in the last 2- 3 years.

It's rather interesting isn't it, maybe Cowell leaving has something to do with him disagreeing with Mercedes pushing the "grey are" Ferrari was using?? (see picture below, the 2020 Merc pours smoke out the breather like the 2019 Fez did.. note the 2020 Fez does not have this behaviour anymore).

All we know is, the FIA have been triggered by something to act. So one of the manufacturers is more than likely up to something. Also remember, this sentence in the announcement of the FIA-Ferrari settlement:

“The FIA and Scuderia Ferrari have agreed to a number of technical commitments that will improve the monitoring of all Formula 1 power units for forthcoming championship seasons as well as assist the FIA in other regulatory duties in Formula 1 and in its research activities on carbon emissions and sustainable fuels.”

So we know Ferrari are "assisting" the FIA govern the technical directives and help them monitor potential exploits better". Take from that what you will.

https://ibb.co/7JZ7ybk

It was the 2018 Ferrari that smoked profusely through the crankcase breather. But that’s what it’s there for.

Mercedes’ straightline performance pales in comparison to what Ferrari was doing last year. Not even comparable.

Cowell is leaving because he wants to do things outside F1.

It’s funny, you kept telling me I’m adding things to what you’re saying, but I wasn’t. At least this time you’re more clear in announcing your conspiracy (your words, not mine) theories, which imply Merc is cheating.

There’s no 2 ways about it. That’s what you have been insinuating and continue to insinuate.

The FIA have been triggered to act because Ferrari are getting routinely beat by midfield and customer teams. I say let them reap what they sowed, but the FIA/FOM will never let that happen in a year where they’ve lost nearly $100m and need as many eyeballs on TV rooting for Ferrari.

Really?

I'm not sure why you're being so hostile. I have made it very clear that I'm not accusing anyone of cheating, I've pointed that out several times, which you keep ignoring, it's worth discussing possibilities here as it's on topic and a forum and it's of high speculation as to what is really going on, I don't have an "agenda" (which you clearly do by the way).
And yes, you add additional bits of info that no one has said in order to formulate a reply which fits your narrative, on this occasion, one that makes me look like a Merc hater because you omit and add bits and pieces everywhere and two, you're not even open to the discussion Mercedes"MIGHT" be playing with a grey are, which is all i was suggesting as a possibility. The fact of the matter is, every manufacturer is under the microscope and until it is revealed what is going on or who is doing what, viable speculation is all we can do, no one has any facts yet, so anyone running around shouting "truth" while simultaneously berating everyone opinions is a little unfair.

Yes, I have been postulating with other fans of the sport about potential exploits being used on the field while it's on topic, and no I don't leave any team or brand or manufacturer out, I even stated I think Honda's skip-fire probably hovers around a grey area in certain operational modes, I'm not suggesting they're cheating though, I'm discussing, which is what this platform is for, to trade ideas to spark conversation, the fact of the matter here is Mercedes are an obvious outlier in the data at the moment, so naturally attention will be biased towards them. There was no need to take things to a new level against posts which are extremely light-hearted, it makes this place toxic with the amount of aggression used so quickly

1. Mercedes' straight line speed pales in comparison to Ferrari... Pales is a bit of an exaggeration here, but they remain to have the greatest speeds over a lap, very strong figures across all races so far and, as you so dearly pointed out, they have significantly more downforce with the W11, well ahead of anyone on the field in 2020 let alone the 2019 Ferrari which was known to be low downforce and even claimed by Ferrari to be so. So this make the numbers more impressive

2. Cowell is leaving to continue activities outside of F1 Yes, I read that article also, but he is linked with Renault discussions. To me.. fielding discussions from other teams within F1 is not "looking for activities outside of it", so can we not speculate on timings of all this? This was a very minor suggestion, like an off hand comment at the ened of a sentence, it was hardly me screaming this is definitely what happened... Anyway, this has again been painted in a negative sensationalist light now, I merely threw out the idea, it's not a solid conspiracy twisted claim by me..it was just a discussion point that is all...

he FIA have been triggered to act because Ferrari are getting routinely beat by midfield and customer teams

The most interesting thing about this, is it sounds like you'd rather point the finger at 4 separate teams with 3 different engines because Ferrari is being beaten by Racing Point, McLaren, Renault and even Alpha Tauri, that it must be all of those teams doing something below the belt that is causing the FIA to act.. as opposed to the clear elephant in the room which is the extreme gap to 1st place all of a sudden... the last quarter of 2019 we saw a team that looked to finally be on the verge of equal terms, trading punches with Merc, but now that has turned into the biggest gap this era has ever seen and yes, even if we consider RBR has made a lesser gain in comparison to the rest of the midfield and Mercedes, that doesn't account for a 1.1 second qualifying gap. If it's all totally legal, nothing suss, then massive kudos to them for creating something extraordinary, but a gain like that.. especially when rival teams/manufacturers with actual data start adding question marks to it and especially so late in the game so why are we acting surprised?

Anyway, can we chill? There is zero hostility coming from my posts, please treat them as such, I genuinely just love the sport and the behind the scenes stuff is fascinating to discuss, i'm not here to hate on anyone's opinion.

[zibby43]

So wait. RP which was 1.2 seconds off Merc at Hungary in 2019 yet was faster than Merc in Q1 at Hungary in 2020 didn't improve any on Merc?

BTW have to compare Q1 because RP couldn't get out of Q1...

Oh but wait, Hungary isn't a power track. Lets look at Silverstone.

RP (again Q1 because...) Also have to use Stroll because of Sergio's COVID so... Stroll 1.2 second off the Mercs in Q1 in 2019, 4 tenths off in 2020. I guess that's not really any improvement, huh.

I guess RP didn't need to cause the big copying rukus then, because they clearly are no closer to the front than they were last year...

Based on TR 2019 vs 2020 I don't think Honda was affected by last years TD. Additionally why would RB ask for a clarification that was going to have a negative affect on their PU. Merc had the info and did nothing with it. RB pushed for the clarification? Do you think RB wanted to have power taken from the Honda PU?

All of that said, I don't think Merc are cheating. They may be operating in a gray area that is undefined, they may not. I don't think Merc would blatantly cheat as Ferrari are suspected of doing. They don't need to. One of the best drivers in the world, a magnificent PU and a chassis that does not get enough credit.

First of all, that data crunched by Mark Hughes included the Hungarian Grand Prix. And that data was a response to the claims that Mercedes made some kind of other-worldly gains relative to the entire field for the '20 season. When in reality, their gains relative to the midfield are in step with what Mercedes does year-on-year.

The outliers are Red Bull and Ferrari. Scott Mitchell also has an article on this.

Second, why cherry-pick Racing Point and ignore Renault and McLaren? Did you think my bringing up that data had anything to do with RP? Because that wasn't the point.

And then why pick Q1, where Mercedes take significantly less out of their tires in their laps relative to the entire field (heck, they still do that in Q2)? It's going to be an unreliable data point when it comes to outright pace.

Austria (power track) 2020

Relative to Mercedes 2019 (lap times converted into a percentage of the fastest single lap of the qualifying sessions, courtesy of Gary Anderson)

McLaren: -0.714%

Racing Point: -0.701%

Red Bull: +0.376%

I picked RP because the were a huge change, which would help offset any less improvement by McLaren and Reno. And second because I spent 20 minutes looking up just the RP stuff and seeing what the patterns were. I'm not gonna spend another 40ish minutes doing so with someone that has an agenda and not an open mind.

I had to pick Q1 because RP didn't make it out of Q1 last year. You can't compare Q3 and Q1 even from the same weekend. Track and weather conditions can change significantly.

I'm done. I'm not even gonna bother reading any more of your posts.

Funny if TR isn't an outlier yet they are powered by Honda...

Again, don't bother replying. I'm just gonna say we will never agree.

I’m supplying data and links to articles from supposedly dispassionate journalists refuting your claims. Go look up their methodology.

Also, how is that an agenda? The article literally explains that Ferrari and RBR have stagnated (somewhat) or fallen backward this year.

Take Racing Point out of the equation, and Mercedes’ gains relative to the midfield are still similar to what they are year-in, year-out.

But yeah, I’m the one with an agenda lol.

[mem]

The FIA also could've stripped Ferrari of all their results and prize money for 2019, but they didn't. Instead, they got a private settlement.
Re: RP (which has nothing to do with this thread), they did actually lose points, unlike Ferrari. And Renault dropped the appeal today, which to me seems like a tacit admission that RP exploited a loophole/unregulated area in the regulations, and now Renault are satisfied that it will be closed going foward.

Re: Merc's pace. Yes. They're faster in every type of corner compared to Red Bull this year, which accounts for the vast majority of the gap.

Out of the 7+ tenths gap in qualifying in Barcelona, about 5-6 tenths came from superior cornering performance.

https://www.formula1.com/content/dam/fo ... /image.jpg

Mercedes' performance increase this year relative to the midfield is virtually identical to past seasons. Which suggests that they did NOT make a huge performance step this year, relative to other years.

Which is also contrary to what GhostF1 has been claiming.

Red Bull and Ferrari fell back. Did they get their car builds wrong? Or did those PU-related TDs affect Honda and Ferrari more? Things that make you go "Hmmmm."

"Nothing has been able to touch the Mercedes W11 in the first three races. No other car has qualified within 0.5sec of it and its advantage at the last race was 0.9sec. But the notable thing is that it isn’t any further clear of the midfield than was last year’s car, as the figures below illustrate.

Qualifying pace average deficit of McLaren/Renault/R Point to Mercedes
2019 – 1.972 per cent
2020 to date – 1.771 per cent"

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... -f1-rivals

Next?

there will be no next you live in a closed circle keep repeating your self
FIA want to help Ferrari although they are the one who take out their PU advantage , you don't see a reason to mention Racing point although you the one who said FIA want to help Ferrari who get beaten by midfield shouldn't FIA hamper Racing point for Ferrari sake
you think most of Mercedes advantage is purely for their supreme chassis although RBR Honda was the only car to lap the whole grid all the cars with Mercedes in Spain and regularly split the Mercedes at finish line, hard to see them going back wards or having dog of chassis or pu honestly.
i no longer read Mark ,last time i read his words pre Singapore 2019 he was pretty sure its between Hamilton and Max only for Ferrari to dominate the race, he seems to be kind of hit and miss
don't compare Mercedes with midfield you compare them with the big boys.
answer the question with your self i need no answer, will you admit the wrong doing of Mercedes if their huge advantage vanished in SPA (due to FIA current investigation)?!!....