[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Pany]

Wrong on my opinion. You assume chassis and Pu are independent. Redbul car is taken to extreme and risky designs because of need of less drag, due to engine. Easy. In this formula if engine is not on par there is not competition, unless mercedes compensate with a crap chassis, which is not the case.

Season's lost anyway. Max is not gonna be the youngest world champion despite Dr. Helmet parroting it around. Highly doubt points earned today would have made any difference to the championship.

RBR's chassis struggles is not gonna be good for Honda's morale for sure. Every year they start on the backfoot, then Horner will come out and say "Newey's interested in F1 again!" then will improve a bit. Since 2014 I don't think RBR/Mclaren had even a single year where their chassis was superior to Mercedes. Even Ferrari had a great car in 2018. Max is out as soon as Lewis retires and his Merc seat is ripe for taking.

Honda needs to improve for sure, its lagging compared to Merc and maybe even Renault. But if you dont have the confidence in RBR to produce a good chassis, you wont have the motivation to keep pushing.

If you asked me a couple of days ago, I would also have thought that Honda are slightly behind.

But you know what? How can we even confirm that when Honda's flagship chassis is seemingly flawed?

On one hand, we know that high rake inherently is more draggy and the RB16 seems to struggle to put power down. It also seems to lack grip and performance in cornering.

On the other hand, we have a Mercedes chassis which is very strong and predictable. I think it's safe to say that it's the current benchmark on the grid.

So how can we even tell at this point whether Honda are truly behind until the main issues with the RB16 are fixed?

[mem]

here we go
GASLY ON A RED BULL RETURN: ‘I THINK I’M READY’
“Obviously I guess the strong results should be rewarded with something but we’ll see what happens.

Asked in the wake of his shock Monza victory – on a day when Albon finished 15th with a damaged car – whether he was ready to handle a Red Bull seat again and whether he felt that would be a good move for 2021, Gasly made clear he felt he had proved his worth.

“I think I’m ready, but it’s not up to me to make that call,” said Gasly of the prospect of a Red Bull return.

“The only thing I’ve done since they moved me back to Toro Rosso is to just focus on myself and just show what I can do when I get the right tools in my hand.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/gasly-on ... -im-ready/
he is asking to ride the man killer beast again , ballsy but ...

[Revs84]

Wrong on my opinion. You assume chassis and Pu are independent. Redbul car is taken to extreme and risky designs because of need of less drag, due to engine. Easy. In this formula if engine is not on par there is not competition, unless mercedes compensate with a crap chassis, which is not the case.

Season's lost anyway. Max is not gonna be the youngest world champion despite Dr. Helmet parroting it around. Highly doubt points earned today would have made any difference to the championship.

RBR's chassis struggles is not gonna be good for Honda's morale for sure. Every year they start on the backfoot, then Horner will come out and say "Newey's interested in F1 again!" then will improve a bit. Since 2014 I don't think RBR/Mclaren had even a single year where their chassis was superior to Mercedes. Even Ferrari had a great car in 2018. Max is out as soon as Lewis retires and his Merc seat is ripe for taking.

Honda needs to improve for sure, its lagging compared to Merc and maybe even Renault. But if you dont have the confidence in RBR to produce a good chassis, you wont have the motivation to keep pushing.

If you asked me a couple of days ago, I would also have thought that Honda are slightly behind.

But you know what? How can we even confirm that when Honda's flagship chassis is seemingly flawed?

On one hand, we know that high rake inherently is more draggy and the RB16 seems to struggle to put power down. It also seems to lack grip and performance in cornering.

On the other hand, we have a Mercedes chassis which is very strong and predictable. I think it's safe to say that it's the current benchmark on the grid.

So how can we even tell at this point whether Honda are truly behind until the main issues with the RB16 are fixed?

The car is being designed to the limit simply because the benchmark is very high.

In the last 2 years, Ferrari managed to overcome that by having a rocket strapped to the back of the car. We all know how that turned out.

Unless you have a top notch chassis or engine, you won't win in this formula. To me it's obvious that the main issue for the RB16 is the former, and measuring the PU's capability until that one's sorted immediately puts Honda at a disadvantage.

[Jaisonas]

On the radio Max clearly changes engine setting between mode 3 and mode 6. Is this allowed?
He is getting irate with the team and its telling

Just so we can clear things up, "modes" in redbull are ers deployment setttings ie. how much the battery is charging or deploying, with 6 being default and >6 charging, <6 deploying depending how high or low you go.

Engine settings are the ones which you are not allowed to change unless reliability issues (ie "engine 1, or engine 11 pos5")

[Pany]

Yes, to beat mercedes you are forced to go extreme and risk with design. Redbull did it with chassis, Ferrari did it with tricks and cheating engine. Result is the same. Hope this formula based on PU ends up quickly

On the radio Max clearly changes engine setting between mode 3 and mode 6. Is this allowed?
He is getting irate with the team and its telling

Just so we can clear things up, "modes" in redbull are ers deployment setttings ie. how much the battery is charging or deploying, with 6 being default and >6 charging, <6 deploying depending how high or low you go.

Engine settings are the ones which you are not allowed to change unless reliability issues (ie "engine 1, or engine 11 pos5")

[Pany]

One thing is try to win one GP, once you have a super opportunity and turn up engine to max. Other thing is compete for championship, so try to make PU last 6 GPs.
Honda has done very well and I am happy, but the main target this year was to fight for title, don't forget. Maybe next year, I hope

[63l8qrrfy6]

It's blindingly obvious the engine is not an issue.
Let's put it this way - if RB were to fix their chassis they would be all over Mercedes every weekend.
If Honda were to bridge the little gap to the Merc PU but RB fail to fix the car they would still get comprehensively beaten every race.

There's little benefit in in pushing the engine for an extra tenth and risking more DNFs when the car losses several tenths in a few corners alone..

[Moore77]

It's blindingly obvious the engine is not an issue.
Let's put it this way - if RB were to fix their chassis they would be all over Mercedes every weekend.
If Honda were to bridge the little gap to the Merc PU but RB fail to fix the car they would still get comprehensively beaten every race.

There's little benefit in in pushing the engine for an extra tenth and risking more DNFs when the car losses several tenths in a few corners alone..

What kind of chassis issues do you think that could remove a second difference to Mercedes? Generally, teams make gains of around a second over a full season in the stable regulations. In the past, Red Bull has demonstrated that, they can offset engine power disadvantage by having a better chassis. Given that, Mercedes has built a super chassis, even if Red Bull sorts out their problems, they would still be short on power. That one second gap that Mercedes has, is not just all chassis. While Honda is a good power unit, it's definitely nowhere close to Mercedes. Last year, Mercedes was struggling with reliability issues and ran their PU in more conservative mode, which gave an illusion that, Honda is on par with Mercedes. Even with this technical directive, they are ahead. To say, if Red Bull fixes chassis issues, it will be all over Mercedes, is an utter overstatement.

[loekf2]

It's blindingly obvious the engine is not an issue.
Let's put it this way - if RB were to fix their chassis they would be all over Mercedes every weekend.
If Honda were to bridge the little gap to the Merc PU but RB fail to fix the car they would still get comprehensively beaten every race.

There's little benefit in in pushing the engine for an extra tenth and risking more DNFs when the car losses several tenths in a few corners alone..

What kind of chassis issues do you think that could remove a second difference to Mercedes? Generally, teams make gains of around a second over a full season in the stable regulations. In the past, Red Bull has demonstrated that, they can offset engine power disadvantage by having a better chassis. Given that, Mercedes has built a super chassis, even if Red Bull sorts out their problems, they would still be short on power. That one second gap that Mercedes has, is not just all chassis. While Honda is a good power unit, it's definitely nowhere close to Mercedes. Last year, Mercedes was struggling with reliability issues and ran their PU in more conservative mode, which gave an illusion that, Honda is on par with Mercedes. Even with this technical directive, they are ahead. To say, if Red Bull fixes chassis issues, it will be all over Mercedes, is an utter overstatement.

I seriously doubt whether the technical leadership at RBR can finally do their job. Basically already for three years incl. the last Renault year, the chassis and aero are below par. I had hoped with stable regulations they had figured it out for this year.

I think it's time to reshuffle the technical staff there.

RB14 was a disaster, but had to be corrected by Newey. RB15 and RB16 have similar issues. It looks like AT01, which uses the rear of RB15 if I'm not mistaken (and other parts ?) doesn't have the rear issues the RB15 and RB16 has/had. Any idea ?

[63l8qrrfy6]

It's blindingly obvious the engine is not an issue.
Let's put it this way - if RB were to fix their chassis they would be all over Mercedes every weekend.
If Honda were to bridge the little gap to the Merc PU but RB fail to fix the car they would still get comprehensively beaten every race.

There's little benefit in in pushing the engine for an extra tenth and risking more DNFs when the car losses several tenths in a few corners alone..

What kind of chassis issues do you think that could remove a second difference to Mercedes? Generally, teams make gains of around a second over a full season in the stable regulations. In the past, Red Bull has demonstrated that, they can offset engine power disadvantage by having a better chassis. Given that, Mercedes has built a super chassis, even if Red Bull sorts out their problems, they would still be short on power. That one second gap that Mercedes has, is not just all chassis. While Honda is a good power unit, it's definitely nowhere close to Mercedes. Last year, Mercedes was struggling with reliability issues and ran their PU in more conservative mode, which gave an illusion that, Honda is on par with Mercedes. Even with this technical directive, they are ahead. To say, if Red Bull fixes chassis issues, it will be all over Mercedes, is an utter overstatement.

All numbers reported in the media put Honda 20-30 hp behind Mercedes which should be around 0.3s loss per lap. This is roughly the target FIA had set for engine convergence. It follows that the rest of the gap, 6 tenths or so is down to the chassis.

I am well aware of the large uncertainty in these numbers but it is all I have.

TD or not, that engine gap is here to stay this season. If they can close the chassis gap down is it inconcievable that Verstappen could consistently beat one of the Mercs (which he already has done to some extent this season) ?.

I didn't imply they can beat both cars, my fault if it came across that way.

[Bill]

Great victory for Gasly .i still think if Redbull want progress as a team they need to take input from both drivers rather believe Max is be and end all .their high rake is draggy and without complex frontwing is unstable and dont produce near same level of downforce as merc

They is a reason why other teams ditch high rake.Rbr has hit a wall they are slower than last year car in most tracks .the best part of that package is the powerunit i reiterate. Marko and company wanted to burn party modes that was an asinine decision it set them back and it stem from redbull sence of superiorty and believe that pu is holding them back, At victory should be a wakeup call

[bucker]

Great victory for Gasly .i still think if Redbull want progress as a team they need to take input from both drivers rather believe Max is be and end all .their high rake is draggy and without complex frontwing is unstable and dont produce near same level of downforce as merc

They is a reason why other teams ditch high rake.Rbr has hit a wall they are slower than last year car in most tracks .the best part of that package is the powerunit i reiterate. Marko and company wanted to burn party modes that was an asinine decision it set them back and it stem from redbull sence of superiorty and believe that pu is holding them back, At victory should be a wakeup call

Marko said that Alex doesn't have the same car as Max.

[Jaisonas]

So when is redbull gonna get back their last year's chassis from AT?

[Bill]

At is low rake is not an Rbr they have similar parts but also has their aero department in the uk and chassis team in italy

[Marti_EF3]

Maybe they can learn a few lessons from AT. They have the data available with Honda too. They need to sort out the issues, or next year will be painful as hell if the midfield keep closing the gap. And Mercedes will still keep updating the car... Hope it's like last season when they sorted out the car more or less mid season. And they started to fight for pole and victory. If that's the case, then that momentum will transfer to 2021 as the cars will be almost the same. But time is running out fast