[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[Lock2nl]

If Honda leaves RBR with a 2022 power unit, they'd be stuck with it and be able to see out 2022 but they'd be behind for 2023, and they would likely fall behind Renault forcing them to take that power unit.

Depends. The biggest thing for 2022 and 2023 is the E-fuel. Honda could work ahead of schedule (in 2021) because they have a new version 3 that already has been developed even further for 2021. If they can develop the 2022 engine in 2021 as planned (what would normally happen if Honda would have stayed) to support the first stage of e-fuels, and assist RB to support the full change to e-fuels for 2023 and beyond, RBR may be in the fight afterall. RBR could use Tsunoda to convince Honda to stick to some kind of support. More support, more Tsunoda... It ain't over yet.

There is a cap on dyno time in regs for this year and next.

Let us wait for the Honda engine during the first 2021 race. If this is an evolution of the unused 2020 v3, restrictions may not be real issue. All teams will be preparing for e-fuelsvin 2021.

[diffuser]

Depends. The biggest thing for 2022 and 2023 is the E-fuel. Honda could work ahead of schedule (in 2021) because they have a new version 3 that already has been developed even further for 2021. If they can develop the 2022 engine in 2021 as planned (what would normally happen if Honda would have stayed) to support the first stage of e-fuels, and assist RB to support the full change to e-fuels for 2023 and beyond, RBR may be in the fight afterall. RBR could use Tsunoda to convince Honda to stick to some kind of support. More support, more Tsunoda... It ain't over yet.

There is a cap on dyno time in regs for this year and next.

Let us wait for the Honda engine during the first 2021 race. If this is an evolution of the unused 2020 v3, restrictions may not be real issue. All teams will be preparing for e-fuelsvin 2021.

Just a note, regs say only 1 PU revision for 2020 and 1 for next year. After 1st race, the PU is locked down.

[etusch]

Let us wait for the Honda engine during the first 2021 race. If this is an evolution of the unused 2020 v3, restrictions may not be real issue. All teams will be preparing for e-fuelsvin 2021.

I understand that Honda has a development plan/shedule for coming years including 2022 and they will introduce all their plan for 21. so it is not 20 v3 not even 21 pu if I derive right things from what I read

[ME4ME]

I think we should all be realistic and don't dream away and raise expectations beyond what's likely to happen.
Regardless if they call it their 2020 v3, 2021 or 2022 engine, it is what it is and it's developed with the time they've got. If i recall correctly Honda was the one to introduce an update this year, the others haven't so they have spend more time working on what's next.

Also Honda has a track record of underestimating their rivals - being bullish at this moment doesn't mean much.

Additionally, Mercedes but also possibly Renault have matched Honda or been very close in development rate. It's not like Honda has clearly and rapidly out-developed them over the last 12 month. The Honda was solid already last year.

We also know Honda still has some unreliabilty issues to solve. More so than Mercedes, which is the reference if they aim for the championship.

I think the most likely outcome is that the current relative PU performance continues next year. Ferrari might catch up on performance a bit but might struggle with unreliability.

[Lock2nl]

Let us wait for the Honda engine during the first 2021 race. If this is an evolution of the unused 2020 v3, restrictions may not be real issue. All teams will be preparing for e-fuelsvin 2021.

I understand that Honda has a development plan/shedule for coming years including 2022 and they will introduce all their plan for 21. so it is not 20 v3 not even 21 pu if I derive right things from what I read

I wasn't clear enough. So let me try again. From what I have understood, Honda had the V3 ready somehere after the start of the season. But regulations made it impossible to use it. If Honda has pushed enough ahead of schedule and the next year engine is not just the evolution of the V3 but a new one that is prepared to be used in 2022 (with 20% e-fuel in stead of 2021 5%), preparations for the modifications to ICE to use 100% e-fuels may actually already be ongoing.
After Honda decided to quit they stated that they would help RBR as much as they could. Let us wait how far they are willing to go.
RBR could use Tsunoda to convince Honda to extend the effort one way or another to finalize the change to 100% e-fuels. They are clever enough to make this possible without using the Honda name as engine manufacturer. It may only need a new company, part Honda part RB(R), and the right Honda staff. Probably Japan based. Remember Asiatech taking over the Peugeot F1 engines? When it failed, all staff and materials went back to Peugeot.

After 2023, I hope Audi could join RBR. But this will only happen if the 2026 regulations are brought forward (ditching the MGU-H).

[Wouter]

I wasn't clear enough. So let me try again. From what I have understood, Honda had the V3 ready somehere after the start of the season. But regulations made it impossible to use it.

You keep talking about the unused V3, but I don't know that term.
Honda actually had the spec 2 ready for the start of the season (July), but didn't use it anyway, too carefully as always.
They have developed this spec 2 at a rapid pace this season. So fast, that they can use a whole "new" engine, which was supposed to be for 2022, now in 2021.

[godlameroso]

I think we should all be realistic and don't dream away and raise expectations beyond what's likely to happen.
Regardless if they call it their 2020 v3, 2021 or 2022 engine, it is what it is and it's developed with the time they've got. If i recall correctly Honda was the one to introduce an update this year, the others haven't so they have spend more time working on what's next.

Also Honda has a track record of underestimating their rivals - being bullish at this moment doesn't mean much.

Additionally, Mercedes but also possibly Renault have matched Honda or been very close in development rate. It's not like Honda has clearly and rapidly out-developed them over the last 12 month. The Honda was solid already last year.

We also know Honda still has some unreliabilty issues to solve. More so than Mercedes, which is the reference if they aim for the championship.

I think the most likely outcome is that the current relative PU performance continues next year. Ferrari might catch up on performance a bit but might struggle with unreliability.

Last year towards the end Honda started using their new plating material. They played it conservative by their own standards for this year, not wanting any reliability issues.

Imagine a whole year of development of everything they wanted to bring out this year but couldn't. No big layout changes, just more power, reliability, in a smaller package. No stepwise upgrades like the last few years, just a whole year of development in one big step.

Honda knows Mercedes will have 1,050hp that is their target. They hope to match or exceed that.

Also actual power unit reliability has been rock solid. All the issues have been with the auxiliary and support systems. All the ICE and turbos are fine.

[Juzh]

I think we should all be realistic and don't dream away and raise expectations beyond what's likely to happen.
Regardless if they call it their 2020 v3, 2021 or 2022 engine, it is what it is and it's developed with the time they've got. If i recall correctly Honda was the one to introduce an update this year, the others haven't so they have spend more time working on what's next.

Also Honda has a track record of underestimating their rivals - being bullish at this moment doesn't mean much.

Additionally, Mercedes but also possibly Renault have matched Honda or been very close in development rate. It's not like Honda has clearly and rapidly out-developed them over the last 12 month. The Honda was solid already last year.

We also know Honda still has some unreliabilty issues to solve. More so than Mercedes, which is the reference if they aim for the championship.

I think the most likely outcome is that the current relative PU performance continues next year. Ferrari might catch up on performance a bit but might struggle with unreliability.

Also actual power unit reliability has been rock solid. All the issues have been with the auxiliary and support systems. All the ICE and turbos are fine.

True, but end result is the same: 3 PU related dnfs, which is unacceptable imo. Not after they had 0 in 2019 (for verstappen) while having much better relative performance against mercedes.

[Lock2nl]

I wasn't clear enough. So let me try again. From what I have understood, Honda had the V3 ready somehere after the start of the season. But regulations made it impossible to use it.

You keep talking about the unused V3, but I don't know that term.
Honda actually had the spec 2 ready for the start of the season (July), but didn't use it anyway, too carefully as always.
They have developed this spec 2 at a rapid pace this season. So fast, that they can use a whole "new" engine, which was supposed to be for 2022, now in 2021.

Yes. I keep talking about v3. V2 was ready as you stated before. But until the supposed to be 2022 for 2021 isn't ready for take off, I guess a V3 (improved V2) does exist. Otherwise: replace v3 with v2, rest is the same.

[Wouter]

I wasn't clear enough. So let me try again. From what I have understood, Honda had the V3 ready somehere after the start of the season. But regulations made it impossible to use it.

.
You keep talking about the unused V3, but I don't know that term.
Honda actually had the spec 2 ready for the start of the season (July), but didn't use it anyway, too carefully as always.
They have developed this spec 2 at a rapid pace this season. So fast, that they can use a whole "new" engine, which was supposed to be for 2022, now in 2021.

.
Yes. I keep talking about v3. V2 was ready as you stated before. But until the supposed to be 2022 for 2021 isn't ready for take off, I guess a V3 (improved V2) does exist. Otherwise: replace v3 with v2, rest is the same.

Maybe I have not been clear enough, I will rephrase it.
You keep talking about a "V". I don't know that term.
I just wanted to know ... what does "V" mean?

[Lock2nl]

Version. Some use the word specification, or spec.

[Wouter]

Version. Some use the word specification, or spec.

Thank you. I have never heard of anyone mention the engines as version.
I must have missed that all these years.
AFAIK the general term is specification, spec 1, spec 2, spec 2.1, spec 2.2, etc.

[etusch]

I think we should all be realistic and don't dream away and raise expectations beyond what's likely to happen.
Regardless if they call it their 2020 v3, 2021 or 2022 engine, it is what it is and it's developed with the time they've got. If i recall correctly Honda was the one to introduce an update this year, the others haven't so they have spend more time working on what's next.

Also Honda has a track record of underestimating their rivals - being bullish at this moment doesn't mean much.

Additionally, Mercedes but also possibly Renault have matched Honda or been very close in development rate. It's not like Honda has clearly and rapidly out-developed them over the last 12 month. The Honda was solid already last year.

We also know Honda still has some unreliabilty issues to solve. More so than Mercedes, which is the reference if they aim for the championship.

I think the most likely outcome is that the current relative PU performance continues next year. Ferrari might catch up on performance a bit but might struggle with unreliability.

Also actual power unit reliability has been rock solid. All the issues have been with the auxiliary and support systems. All the ICE and turbos are fine.

True, but end result is the same: 3 PU related dnfs, which is unacceptable imo. Not after they had 0 in 2019 (for verstappen) while having much better relative performance against mercedes.

it is same for particular race it occured but not same for season. But it is really strange so many fault this season after 2019 level of working quality and reliability

[godlameroso]

I think we should all be realistic and don't dream away and raise expectations beyond what's likely to happen.
Regardless if they call it their 2020 v3, 2021 or 2022 engine, it is what it is and it's developed with the time they've got. If i recall correctly Honda was the one to introduce an update this year, the others haven't so they have spend more time working on what's next.

Also Honda has a track record of underestimating their rivals - being bullish at this moment doesn't mean much.

Additionally, Mercedes but also possibly Renault have matched Honda or been very close in development rate. It's not like Honda has clearly and rapidly out-developed them over the last 12 month. The Honda was solid already last year.

We also know Honda still has some unreliabilty issues to solve. More so than Mercedes, which is the reference if they aim for the championship.

I think the most likely outcome is that the current relative PU performance continues next year. Ferrari might catch up on performance a bit but might struggle with unreliability.

Also actual power unit reliability has been rock solid. All the issues have been with the auxiliary and support systems. All the ICE and turbos are fine.

True, but end result is the same: 3 PU related dnfs, which is unacceptable imo. Not after they had 0 in 2019 (for verstappen) while having much better relative performance against mercedes.

Verstappen's 3 DNF's weren't power unit failures. Failure one was a drive shaft, nothing to do with the ICE. Failure 2 electronics issue non power unit related and not terminal, Failure 3 also electronics issue that led to collision, which is what caused the DNF and finally DNF 4 was a tire blow out, nothing to do with the power unit.

For the others, again, Gasly had a radiator issue, not a power unit issue. Damaged radiator made Albon retire as well.

Other than practice engines going up in smoke, there have not been any ICE or turbo failures at all. Electronic faults are more likely down to packaging than actual component failure(understandable if you're pushing the limits of what's possible). The cars aren't indestructible, when the tracks can damage cars if one is not careful, and debris are strewn about, or are pushing like mad, one small mistake can send debris from another car into your radiator.

[Juzh]

Also actual power unit reliability has been rock solid. All the issues have been with the auxiliary and support systems. All the ICE and turbos are fine.

True, but end result is the same: 3 PU related dnfs, which is unacceptable imo. Not after they had 0 in 2019 (for verstappen) while having much better relative performance against mercedes.

Verstappen's 3 DNF's weren't power unit failures. Failure one was a drive shaft, nothing to do with the ICE. Failure 2 electronics issue non power unit related and not terminal, Failure 3 also electronics issue that led to collision, which is what caused the DNF and finally DNF 4 was a tire blow out, nothing to do with the power unit.

For the others, again, Gasly had a radiator issue, not a power unit issue. Damaged radiator made Albon retire as well.

Other than practice engines going up in smoke, there have not been any ICE or turbo failures at all. Electronic faults are more likely down to packaging than actual component failure(understandable if you're pushing the limits of what's possible). The cars aren't indestructible, when the tracks can damage cars if one is not careful, and debris are strewn about, or are pushing like mad, one small mistake can send debris from another car into your radiator.

Did you intentionally decide to ignore that part of my post where I agreed with you that none of the failures were ICE or turbo? I know they weren't, I know they were ancillary problems, but they were honda induced nonetheless.
Verstappen crashed out in mugello solely because of a PU problem putting him in the middle of the pack, dont even try to deny this or putting blame onto him or whoever else. He told afterwards that had he not been crashed out he would retire anyway the next lap and that much was obvious. He had the same problem in monza. Honda was "confident" they solved the issue after that race.

As for the driveshaft failure, where did you get this info? I can't find anything other than "electronics problem" and that it was put down to a honda part.

Lastly, why are you dragging 4th retirement into this at all? It is completely irrelevant to this discussion. No one said anything about it yet you bring it just for the sake of it.