Problems for Mclaren with development

[Roger the knife]

I think the Hamilton issue with this subject is that he is still to inexperienced to have a commanding presence in the team. I suspect if Alonso were there, he would have driven the car once, climbed out and said "this is rubbish, it needs fixing now", whereas Lewis and Heikki are still too new to have that sort of clout, the attitude of the engineeers for the first few tests was probably "of course it feels different, you'll just have to adapt, it's not a car problem", and now, too late, it clearly is a car problem. Not Lewis' problem per se, but his lack of MS command of the team. He will learn from this, and I suspect be a lot more demanding in future.

[vall]

CMSMJ1:

exactly, but I doubt this will happen. It is easy to have a big mouth and show disrespect to the other drivers when you are installed in the best car. I would see him drive a bad car. Really. We all saw what Alonso did last year with the crappy R28. MS also has some amazing drives with a bad Ferarri in the past. The difference is that all those guys started from the back in the grid driving mediocre cars and made their way to the top. And I doubt they enjoyed the kind of exclusive support from the team, as H. had in Macca.

[ISLAMATRON]

I am really excited by the perspective to see Hamilton in a mediocre car

So am I. I hope he outperforms the car and proves he has some skills.

So you are saying he has yet to prove to have any skills thus far?

[hulmerist]

I think the Hamilton issue with this subject is that he is still to inexperienced to have a commanding presence in the team. I suspect if Alonso were there, he would have driven the car once, climbed out and said "this is rubbish, it needs fixing now", whereas Lewis and Heikki are still too new to have that sort of clout, the attitude of the engineeers for the first few tests was probably "of course it feels different, you'll just have to adapt, it's not a car problem", and now, too late, it clearly is a car problem. Not Lewis' problem per se, but his lack of MS command of the team. He will learn from this, and I suspect be a lot more demanding in future.

i'm pretty sure the engineers will have known straight away that the car isn't right, they know the data they got from the wind tunnel doesn't match up with what's happening on track

i doubt they ever thought the car was good

[timbo]

I think that possible role of LH in car development is still to be seen. The key part is will he stay motivated and will push his team if he would struggle with the car.

On technical knowledge - I remember reading PdlR interview from the start of 2005 season where he said that the car is fast on entry and exit but not very good midway thru the corner and that he has ideas on what they must do to change that. So... Driver DOES matter.
But their team worked well last year and they improved the car over the season, so clearly it will be not up to LH to solve their problems.

[Roger the knife]

I think the Hamilton issue with this subject is that he is still to inexperienced to have a commanding presence in the team. I suspect if Alonso were there, he would have driven the car once, climbed out and said "this is rubbish, it needs fixing now", whereas Lewis and Heikki are still too new to have that sort of clout, the attitude of the engineeers for the first few tests was probably "of course it feels different, you'll just have to adapt, it's not a car problem", and now, too late, it clearly is a car problem. Not Lewis' problem per se, but his lack of MS command of the team. He will learn from this, and I suspect be a lot more demanding in future.

i'm pretty sure the engineers will have known straight away that the car isn't right, they know the data they got from the wind tunnel doesn't match up with what's happening on track

i doubt they ever thought the car was good

If they thought the car was bad from Day 1, and haven't made any real steps forward, then this does not bode well for the rest of the year. I still prefer to believe that engineering arrogance accounted for the dealy in truly recognising the seriousness of the issue, and that having finally accepted that the car is a "PUP" they will burn some midnight oil and get a solution.

[axle]

I think the Hamilton issue with this subject is that he is still to inexperienced to have a commanding presence in the team. I suspect if Alonso were there, he would have driven the car once, climbed out and said "this is rubbish, it needs fixing now", whereas Lewis and Heikki are still too new to have that sort of clout, the attitude of the engineeers for the first few tests was probably "of course it feels different, you'll just have to adapt, it's not a car problem", and now, too late, it clearly is a car problem. Not Lewis' problem per se, but his lack of MS command of the team. He will learn from this, and I suspect be a lot more demanding in future.

i'm pretty sure the engineers will have known straight away that the car isn't right, they know the data they got from the wind tunnel doesn't match up with what's happening on track

i doubt they ever thought the car was good

If they thought the car was bad from Day 1, and haven't made any real steps forward, then this does not bode well for the rest of the year. I still prefer to believe that engineering arrogance accounted for the dealy in truly recognising the seriousness of the issue, and that having finally accepted that the car is a "PUP" they will burn some midnight oil and get a solution.

Root cause analysis is not possible over night. They could probably throw a sticky tape solution at it and run mid-field...but they don't want to do that...they want to win - they might need to redesign EVERY surface as they are all linked to fix it...

[vall]

Timbo

But their team worked well last year and they improved the car over the season, so clearly it will be not up to LH to solve their problems.

right, but don't forget they could do lost of testing last year. If what is said that their tunnel data do not match the on-track ones is true and that they *are really* in deep sh...t, then I don't see how they would manage to improve, at least not fast, if they cannot trust the tunnel data and have very limited possibility for testing

[CMSMJ1]

I am really excited by the perspective to see Hamilton in a mediocre car

So am I. I hope he outperforms the car and proves he has some skills.

So you are saying he has yet to prove to have any skills thus far?

Not at all. I agree he has some skills but that I have not seen them all.

Would be good to see him fight from the back of a grid and if he has a poor car it would be good to ssee him wringing it's neck.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

I agree it would be great to see Hamilton wringing every ounce of speed from a slow car. And (not that he has anything to prove anymore) he has yet to demonstate his ability in a poor car.

Put it this way, Alonso has the ability to semily drag pace, kicking and screaming, from a car that sholdn't have it. Pat Symonds alluded to this once in an interview...it was a long time ago but he said Alonso can "drive around the problems a car has" he also said this is both a great attribute but WAS a hinderance on him as a young driver (as he's just drive aound the car's weak areas rather than set it up properly...not because he's lazy, but because it came naturally). I've often cited this as a reason for that crazyly aggresive initial turn-in he used when driving the R25 & R26...it just worked with that car.

Alonso's shown his ability is a poor car (debut season with Minardi in 2001's PS01 (can u believe its been THAT long?!) and 2008's renault R28) but Hamilton's yet to show us that sort of ability.

I'm sure he can do it though. Give any of the top F1 guys a crappy car and they'll make SOMETHING happen. It might not be mind blowing but they'll sure as hell drive the nuts off it.

[Spencifer_Murphy]

Sorry for the quick repost but just seen this:

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/03/ ... rformance/

Oh bugger!

[kilcoo316]

Oh bugger!

Nah, its a pretty standard procedure.

There will be an inquest into what is wrong, how did it go wrong, what can be done to fix it, and what procedures must be put in place to stop it happening again.


Its pretty much the first step on the road to recovery (but it also indicates that they are not *yet* on top of the problem whatsoever).

[andartop]

By the same token, there is only so much feedback a driver can give, 'the rear feels like this...' 'the car feels like that under braking...' ect.

Seriously now. Have you ever heard about a guy named Michael Schumacher? Or Fernando Alonso? Hell, even DC could do better than that..

So you know exactly what is said in the McLaren garage when Lewis and Heikki talk with their engineers do you??? Look, I'm by no means suggesting thats exactly what they are saying to their engineers, but, it probably would be something along those lines. I get the feeling your suggesting that Michael Schumacher and Alonso tell their engineers exactly how to do their jobs and exactly what a given car needs to perform better. I mean, they might have a better understanding of engineering and mechanics, but, if their cars were bottoming out its not like there going to say to their engineers 'we need to raise the ride height by 5mm' ... rather they would suggest raising it but not give a figure, that is for the engineers to work out exactly how much to raise it by, not the driver. If we think back to 2005 when Ferrari had a poor year, are you going to say that "it was a bad year because Schumacher's feed back was out of whack?" sometimes bad design can't be side stepped by a drivers ability to help development. I really hope this is not actually the case at McLaren...

Thanks axle for the kind comment about my post

Of course I don't! I just disagreed with the "there is only so much feedback a driver can give.." bit. Obviously some drivers are much better at this than others. Regardless of the team or car, some drivers are famous for the amount of feedback they can provide, and some others... well, they 're not. It makes sense, doesn't it?

[Fil]

lkocev & andartop, i think you're both putting accurate thoughts across, but not seeing the middle ground.

feedback is the information provided by the driver and correctly translated by his engineer. there are good examples of drivers struggling in a season, changing engineers and all of a sudden improving for the next season. did their feedback suddenly get better, or was it more accurately translated into their setup by their new engineer?
of course some drivers can put their thoughts across better than others, which just makes it easier for their engineer to understand what is needed.

There's a reason why Schumacher stuck with Chris Dyer throughout his career, they had a mutual understanding that was as good as it got. the championships proved that.

in the end, it takes two to tango (tho i'm not too sure who takes the lead and who follows..)

[Moanlower]

I dont know guys, this talk of driver expirience and all that, just because Hamilton and Kovalainen are only in there 3rd F1 season, they still have been racing single seaters for a long time, and its not like some of what they learnt in other formulae isn't applicable to F1 in terms of getting a good setup, and communicating with an engineer. I mean, if it is a matter of the car being difficult to set-up, for me I still think its the engineering teams' responsibilities to help drivers feel confident whilst getting maximum performance from the package they have available to them. By the same token, there is only so much feedback a driver can give, 'the rear feels like this...' 'the car feels like that under braking...' ect. but if the problems are design problems, then its not like Hamilton, Kovalainen or de la Rosa can jump in the car, take it for a lap or two, and then bring it in and say "OK, this, this, and this are wrong, here is a drawing of a rear wing that will work" ... come on guys, a drivers job is to drive and give feedback, not design and build a car

Here's something I found a while ago. Unfortunately I don't have a name or know where exactly it was posted.

This was posted by an CFD specialist for Renault, on Alonso's technical ability and knowledge:
Quote:
No. I quite like the guy.

When it comes to car setup the driver is the one and final deciding factor. A driver won't always know what changes are being made to the car in the garage, or rather what changes need to be made in order to correct a certain issue/problem, but changes will be made on demand until the driver is happy with the car's handling.

The difference between Piquet and Alonso is that Alonso knows exactly what he wants changing every time he comes in. I usually listen to all the radio during the tests and stuff, and the amount of technical detail Alonso goes into is incredible. He'll come into the garage and say that in turns 4, 6 and 10 he's having poor traction through a certain portion of the throttle map when he is at 1/4 wheel lock - and then tell his engineer (he doesn't suggest, he tells) to soften the rear dampers by 1 click, to lower the rear ride height 2mm and that engine map #5 needs tweaking in the 10-11k RPM range.

Piquet just says "no grip" and whines ..

I have so much respect for Alonso's technical knowledge. 99% of the public don't know how on the ball this guy is.

Now, is this nonsense and did someone just made this all up

Why was Renault able to crawl back last season like they did? Why was Brawn so eager to have Alonso? Not just because he is a damn good driver.