Problems for Mclaren with development

[ISLAMATRON]

No doubt Alonso is very good at feedback... but he also has much more experience than Piquet as well(honestly the comparison id not even fair, Piquet is not even in the top ten amongst those in his age group).

The real question is How is Alonso versus the Likes of Hamilton, KIMI, Massa, and the other top drivers of F1.

No doubt Alonso is a great setup man, and very fast but is he blindingly fast like the 3 mentioned above.

We all know KIMI is fast, we even seen Massa outpace Schumacher on a couple days, And Hamilton has gotten the better of Alonso on some occasions, as have Truily & Fisi.

But why is it important? well just think back to where we have seen this type matchup before... Prost vs Senna... everyone knows Prost was fantastic at setting up the car... I have no doubt the professor was better than Alonso and possibly Schumacher. But Senna learned about setting up the car and on top of that was blindingly fast, the result was Senna 14 wins to Prost's 11 head to head at McLaren, and that was with Senna giving Prost several wins with silly mistakes (Monaco & Monza come to mind).

Yes being able to communicate what the car is doing and what it needs is very important, but the need to be quick is even more so... case in point... WURZ & PDLR are considered the top test drivers in F1, but they aren't good enough to be the top 20 in their profession.

I have the impression that Hamilton is farther along as a driver than Alonso was at the same point in their careers, thus why Alonso did exactly what Prost did and hightailed it out of their knowing that he could only beat Hamilton with superior equipment but never on equal footing.

Give me fast over feedback any day.... then I'll teach the fast driver what he needs to tell the engineer... cant teach fast.

[ernos5]

Hamilton isn't fast, can you please not say that, he just drives a fast car, it's obvious when you watch his throttle response and especially his braking, it will be interesting to see this year how much he wines like a bitch if Mclaren keep up this sluggish performance all year

yes i do agree with you though about test drivers and race drivers are completely different roles and being good in one of them, won't necessarily guarantee success in the other.

[lkocev]

Here's something I found a while ago. Unfortunately I don't have a name or know where exactly it was posted.

This was posted by an CFD specialist for Renault, on Alonso's technical ability and knowledge:
Quote:
No. I quite like the guy.

When it comes to car setup the driver is the one and final deciding factor. A driver won't always know what changes are being made to the car in the garage, or rather what changes need to be made in order to correct a certain issue/problem, but changes will be made on demand until the driver is happy with the car's handling.

The difference between Piquet and Alonso is that Alonso knows exactly what he wants changing every time he comes in. I usually listen to all the radio during the tests and stuff, and the amount of technical detail Alonso goes into is incredible. He'll come into the garage and say that in turns 4, 6 and 10 he's having poor traction through a certain portion of the throttle map when he is at 1/4 wheel lock - and then tell his engineer (he doesn't suggest, he tells) to soften the rear dampers by 1 click, to lower the rear ride height 2mm and that engine map #5 needs tweaking in the 10-11k RPM range.

Piquet just says "no grip" and whines ..

I have so much respect for Alonso's technical knowledge. 99% of the public don't know how on the ball this guy is.

Now, is this nonsense and did someone just made this all up

Why was Renault able to crawl back last season like they did? Why was Brawn so eager to have Alonso? Not just because he is a damn good driver.

With respect, even if that is true and not made up, that is an example of Alonso being able to help the engineer to set the car up well, to his liking. Setting a car up well is not the same thing as developing a car well... getting a good setup isnt always what is 'mathematically' correct for a given circuit, different drivers will feel more confident with different types of set up, or rather different handling charicteristics. Often it is not actually the 'matematicaly optimum' set-up that a driver can make his fastest qualifying lap on, generally giving a driver a set up that gives him more confidence or better feel of the car will help him put a better lap together.

Having said that, I do agree that Alonso is quite knowlegable about getting a good set up, and very talented at driving around a cars short comings, but like I said, getting a good set up is not the same as developing a car. Developing a car, what I think it is anyhow, is bringing new parts to a car, improving cooling systems, ect. improving the cars overall qualities... that as far as I know is the job of the design teams, and not the same as setting a car up to, and then driving it to the maximum of its qualities.

I agree that a good driver can evaluate parts/updates better than a lesser driver, or a driver with a lesser understanding, but like I said in a previous post, there is no way that Alonso, or any driver for that matter is going to get into a car, do a few laps and then come in with a drawing of a rear wing or whatever part that will bridge their performance deficet.

[djos]

FFS, some paragraphs please!!!!

[andartop]

Fil, I agree that cooperation is the key, but in order to cooperate with someone you first need to communicate with him: if a driver (any driver) is blindingly fast but has no engineering knowledge whatsoever (ok, that might be impossible, say "has very little knowledge"!) he would be having trouble providing this feedback in the first place, hence the cooperation between such an individual and his engineer MIGHT be problematic.
Ikocev, I agree that racing and developing a car are two different things. However, in order to develop a car to its maximum potential I think you would need someone to optimize the setup first (every single time) and then compare ie two different parts while squeezing out of them the maximum (or near) performance: what's the point in trying to evaluate a new wing if you can't keep the car on the track long enough to provide the data?
I might be wrong though, so someone in the future might discover a young talent who's fast as a lightning, can only speak ancient Greek and thinks there's a nuclear powerplant under the bonnet, but still is amazingly good in setting up the car..

[axle]

I do love the fact that everyone assumes that during the 10 years Lewis has been on the McLaren books they've never taught him sh1t about car setup etc, I mean how stupid do you think McLaren are?

Lewis will have a better than average grasp of setting up a car, he's won a lot of titles and raw pace alone isn't enough for that. McLaren wouldn't have given him a chance if he couldn't do it.

Lay off the kid and let McLaren get on with fixing their car.

[andartop]

I never said anything about Lewis specifically if you read my posts.. I have no way of knowing whether he is capable of providing good feedback or not.

[axle]

I never said anything about Lewis specifically if you read my posts.. I have no way of knowing whether he is capable of providing good feedback or not.

I didn't quote you did I!?

[andartop]

Well, forget it then. I take it you agree some drivers provide better feedback than others, which was my whole point!

[axle]

Well, forget it then. I take it you agree some drivers provide better feedback than others, which was my whole point!

Yes, hence I said he's probably been trained to a point that makes him better than average...no two drivers will give the same feedback.

I would expect that Alonso and Schumacher are both excellent. Piquet would probably be my lowest ranked.

[safeaschuck]

I'm sure as a wee small lad Lewis would have been chatting to his dad about setting up his Kart. The adjustments available are limited but once you see what a difference they can make it becomes a very important aspect of your raceday (they do test as well!) Lewis seems very intelligent, and if he has pursued his career with the sort of dedication it is widely believed he has then I bet you my last pound/dollar/shirt button that he will have become very highly knowledgeable on the subject, he would have known all along that it is an essential skill if you want to win.
Whether he is better than Alonso is very difficult to answer, however they have run in exactly the same car for a year...
Anti-Alonso conspiracy theories aside it was a chance to see the two back to back without having differing machinery to blame for discrepancies.
If Alonso's set-up abilities were that far ahead, it would have been even more of a mountain for Hamilton to climb.

My opinion, disagree if you must but Hamilton will win at least 3 races this year.
Alonso?... One? Two?

[blobslosak]

I remember hearing that Ron focused on not only making him a great driver, but also ensuring he had a good technical grounding too. I think he did some form of engineering, not a degree, but something at college. As said above, he will have setup experience from the rest of his racing career, its just a case of applying it to f1 which will come in time. Alonso is probably better at car setup because of his experience.

[Skunk0001]

Having said that, I do agree that Alonso is quite knowlegable about getting a good set up, and very talented at driving around a cars short comings, but like I said, getting a good set up is not the same as developing a car. Developing a car, what I think it is anyhow, is bringing new parts to a car, improving cooling systems, ect. improving the cars overall qualities... that as far as I know is the job of the design teams, and not the same as setting a car up to, and then driving it to the maximum of its qualities.

I agree that a good driver can evaluate parts/updates better than a lesser driver, or a driver with a lesser understanding, but like I said in a previous post, there is no way that Alonso, or any driver for that matter is going to get into a car, do a few laps and then come in with a drawing of a rear wing or whatever part that will bridge their performance deficet.

A quote from Alonso at the start of last season:

Also I have some ideas for developing the car, some things that I'm sure will improve the car – and hopefully at the end of this pre-season, late February and the beginning of March, we will introduce some of these on the car and hopefully we will improve quickly.

Source: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64939

Might have been a lucky guess, but things worked out pretty much the way he said it would, with their pace gradually improving from Barcelona onwards. Alonso generally tells things the way they are (from his point of view), I dont believe he just made all that up.

It could be argued that he did indeed bring 0.6 to McLaren, and in a way that it carried over to the 2008 season, and that McLaren miss that kind of feedback this season. Renault 'found' about that much last season too.

Whether this is simply in the form of him taking knowledge (in his head) with him from one team to another (and back) or something more technical is anybodys guess but I know who I'd like to have in my team.

[Shaddock]

I think people have short memories, it was Alonso that threw his toys out of the pram. "Nobody takes 1/2 a second out of me" after qualifying in China. Actually it was 0.6sec but whose counting. Childishly he then threw his helmet across the room and broke the door off the motorhome.

[ISLAMATRON]

Hamilton isn't fast, can you please not say that, he just drives a fast car, it's obvious when you watch his throttle response and especially his braking, it will be interesting to see this year how much he wines like a bitch if Mclaren keep up this sluggish performance all year

yes i do agree with you though about test drivers and race drivers are completely different roles and being good in one of them, won't necessarily guarantee success in the other.

You are foolish to think HAmilton isnt fast, and to say it aloud lowers your ranking amoung the speakers on this topic. Hamilton may not yet be among the greats of the sport as an all around driver, but what he has proven is exceptional speed, almost to a fault. Especially in the rain.

It was Mika Hakkinen who stated " Yes anyone who drives that fast all the time will make mistakes."