2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Ryar wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:00
I take it that you are implying there are no possibilities of any sort of internal injuries to a driver in modern day sports cars and that there are zero chances of long term impacts to brain, that are not apparent in the immediate aftermath.
no, I'm saying your last few points of argument are faulty, because of the data you are using to support them.
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Ryar
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:04
Ryar wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:00
I take it that you are implying there are no possibilities of any sort of internal injuries to a driver in modern day sports cars and that there are zero chances of long term impacts to brain, that are not apparent in the immediate aftermath.
no, I'm saying your last few points of argument are faulty, because of the data you are using to support them.
You are saying, if there are no "in driver" censors, "in car" sensor impact cannot be used to say that is the same impact on the driver. That was the point of argument and now you are moving away from it. The article says, they use the car impact number as a reference to assess the driver.
Hakuna Matata!

darkpino
darkpino
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 06:27
Ryar wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 05:16
LaplacesDemon wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 00:22


No he hasnt.
The survival cell has, not the driver.
Right. Max was in the air, levitating inside the cockpit when the car hit the barrier. :)

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... -/6633616/
In-car sensors estimated that the impact registered at 51G, which was the biggest crash of Verstappen's career.
Note it says in-car, not in Max.

Max didn't experience 51G, unless you have proof that he had a G sensor on/in him.

The entire point of the side impact structures, the foam around the cockpit, and even the foam in his helmut is to reduce the load Max experiences.
That’s not exactly true. The foam in the cockpit and helmet is meant to provide zero moving space as every little mm of moving space while stationary becomes cm’s in a 51G crash. That’s also what an HANS device is for: to provide not more than X space in a crash for movement

The side impact structures are there to indeed lower the impact just like a normal road car has those, but then still the 51G’s measured in the survival cell is pretty certain also the force the driver faced.

Source: I’ve worked till 2012 in several (drag)racing teams, been working in automotive also till that point and also educated in automotive

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Ryar wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:09
dans79 wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:04
Ryar wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:00
I take it that you are implying there are no possibilities of any sort of internal injuries to a driver in modern day sports cars and that there are zero chances of long term impacts to brain, that are not apparent in the immediate aftermath.
no, I'm saying your last few points of argument are faulty, because of the data you are using to support them.
You are saying, if there are no "in driver" censors, "in car" sensor impact cannot be used to say that is the same impact on the driver. That was the point of argument and now you are moving away from it. The article says, they use the car impact number as a reference to assess the driver.
No, I'm moving away from nothing.

You argued that Max experienced 51g, and that is false, some part of the car experienced 51g. Max experienced less than 51g (no one knows how much less), because of the many safety devices thats are in place to reduce the load he experiences. Then you reverenced a case study that set a threshold at 50g (I assume because it's very close to 51). However thats is also a bad point of argument, as the data is almost 2 decades old, and thus again doesn't take into account any of the modern safety devices the drivers now use.

Is max at risk of some form of long term injury, sure. However, he didn't experience 51G, and he is a lot more protected than a IRL driver from 20 years ago was.
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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darkpino wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:29
That’s not exactly true. The foam in the cockpit and helmet is meant to provide zero moving space as every little mm of moving space while stationary becomes cm’s in a 51G crash. That’s also what an HANS device is for: to provide not more than X space in a crash for movement
Yes, but its soft and compresses. When it compresses it increases the deceleration time, and thus decreases the force exerted. The foam does the same as the crash structures, it increases the deceleration time and absorbs energy.

Redbull even mentions this themselves on their website.
https://www.redbull.com/int-en/redbullr ... ver-safety
There’s more protection in the cockpit than belts alone. The drivers wear padding on their knees to prevent jarring injuries during an impact, and have a cockpit surround fitted after they are belted-in. The surround is a thin composite shell filled with urethane foam. The foam materials have energy absorption properties that perform better in specific temperature ranges. Thus, the FIA issues an official temperature before each session, and the headrest best suited to that temperature band is fitted. Thus, if the ambient temperature is above 30°C, you’ll see headrest material that is blue; below 30°C and it’s pink (there’s also a light blue foam used on very cold days in winter testing – and at the Nürburgring recently).
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darkpino
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Thats true but very marginal as far as I know. I’m not even aware if there are tests been carried out regarding that, the seatbelts do stretch but that didn’t help ofcourse in this case.

To cut it short, it nonsense to say that the car faced 51G’s but the driver didn’t. This is exactly where also this safety device is for (the G meter with the light on top of the survival cell)

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Ryar
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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darkpino wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:59
Thats true but very marginal as far as I know. I’m not even aware if there are tests been carried out regarding that, the seatbelts do stretch but that didn’t help ofcourse in this case.

To cut it short, it nonsense to say that the car faced 51G’s but the driver didn’t. This is exactly where also this safety device is for (the G meter with the light on top of the survival cell)
It has become an inherent culture to simply keep arguing even from the obvious wrong side of an argument. It's bonkers that someone believes the car suffers 51g and driver didn't, if any, simply to downplay the other side. #-o
Hakuna Matata!

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Wouter
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Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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darkpino wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:29
dans79 wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 06:27
Ryar wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 05:16
Right. Max was in the air, levitating inside the cockpit when the car hit the barrier. :)

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... -/6633616/
In-car sensors estimated that the impact registered at 51G, which was the biggest crash of Verstappen's career.
Note it says in-car, not in Max.

Max didn't experience 51G, unless you have proof that he had a G sensor on/in him.

The entire point of the side impact structures, the foam around the cockpit, and even the foam in his helmut is to reduce the load Max experiences.
That’s not exactly true. The foam in the cockpit and helmet is meant to provide zero moving space as every little mm of moving space while stationary becomes cm’s in a 51G crash. That’s also what an HANS device is for: to provide not more than X space in a crash for movement

The side impact structures are there to indeed lower the impact just like a normal road car has those, but then still the 51G’s measured in the survival cell is pretty certain also the force the driver faced.

Source: I’ve worked till 2012 in several (drag)racing teams, been working in automotive also till that point and also educated in automotive
Thank you @darkpino, very helpful!! Good information from someone who has the right knowledge about this.
Last edited by Wouter on 23 Jul 2021, 09:09, edited 1 time in total.
The Power of Dreams!

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Ryar
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 09:06
darkpino wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:29
dans79 wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 06:27



https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda ... -/6633616/

Note it says in-car, not in Max.

Max didn't experience 51G, unless you have proof that he had a G sensor on/in him.

The entire point of the side impact structures, the foam around the cockpit, and even the foam in his helmut is to reduce the load Max experiences.
That’s not exactly true. The foam in the cockpit and helmet is meant to provide zero moving space as every little mm of moving space while stationary becomes cm’s in a 51G crash. That’s also what an HANS device is for: to provide not more than X space in a crash for movement

The side impact structures are there to indeed lower the impact just like a normal road car has those, but then still the 51G’s measured in the survival cell is pretty certain also the force the driver faced.

Source: I’ve worked till 2012 in several (drag)racing teams, been working in automotive also till that point and also educated in automotive
Thank you @darkpino, very helpful!!
Indeed.
Hakuna Matata!

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Tim.Wright
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Joined: 13 Feb 2009, 06:29

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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They have accelerometers in the drivers earplugs.

Chassis accelerations *can* be wildly different to the driver head accelerations in an accident. Depends on intensity and duration of the impact among other things.
Not the engineer at Force India

the EDGE
the EDGE
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Joined: 13 Feb 2012, 18:31
Location: Bedfordshire ENGLAND

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 06:27
Note it says in-car, not in Max.

Max didn't experience 51G, unless you have proof that he had a G sensor on/in him
F1 drivers do have g-force sensors on/in them - but I have no idea if that is where this measurement is from. The following has been standard equipment for many years now

Measuring 3mm wide, the tiny chip in question features some “serious engineering” that could potentially help save lives and has been produced by STMicroelectronics working in conjunction with the FIA Institute. According to the report, it’s an accelerometer of the type that you might find in a smartphone or tablet, but it has been specifically designed for use in sport, with the FIA Institute adapting the sensor for use by racing drivers. Inside their very ears!
https://www.electronicsweekly.com/made- ... 1-2013-04/

the EDGE
the EDGE
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Joined: 13 Feb 2012, 18:31
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Tim.Wright wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 09:17
They have accelerometers in the drivers earplugs.

Chassis accelerations *can* be wildly different to the driver head accelerations in an accident. Depends on intensity and duration of the impact among other things.
You beat me to it… but I thought I’d post anyway incase anyone wanted to read, apologies

LaplacesDemon
LaplacesDemon
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Joined: 21 Jul 2021, 01:57

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Ryar wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 05:16
LaplacesDemon wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 00:22
Wouter wrote:
22 Jul 2021, 15:18


Max has had 51G on his head and neck, among other things.
No he hasnt.
The survival cell has, not the driver.
Right. Max was in the air, levitating inside the cockpit when the car hit the barrier. :)
Unless Max was perfectly rigid and solidly bolted to the survival cell he would not have felt whatever sensors read.

It was a big shunt but people should stop throwing the 51g around because:
a. It does not represent what different parts of the driver's body experience.
b. It is meaningless unless the duration is stated.

darkpino
darkpino
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Joined: 31 Aug 2017, 17:35

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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LaplacesDemon wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 10:21
Ryar wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 05:16
LaplacesDemon wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 00:22


No he hasnt.
The survival cell has, not the driver.
Right. Max was in the air, levitating inside the cockpit when the car hit the barrier. :)
Unless Max was perfectly rigid and solidly bolted to the survival cell he would not have felt whatever sensors read.

It was a big shunt but people should stop throwing the 51g around because:
a. It does not represent what different parts of the driver's body experience.
b. It is meaningless unless the duration is stated.
I’m very curious what your source is to this?
I’d otherwise recommend to read the Wiki-page regarding G-forces: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-force If you are interested in some more in depth stuff I can also recommend some study books regarding science/physics, just send me a private message and I’ll send you a list

As last thing I’d like to add: 51G is an absolute number which may or may not tell you anything (regarding your experience on this). I’ve seen some data that this was the second biggest impact in an F1 crash since 2015 with ofcourse Grosjean’s crash of last year being the hardest. Maybe if you can’t put the 51G’s in context, that bit of info will. (I didn’t check the source on it so I’m not 100% sure if it’s right mind you)

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Big Tea
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Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Ryar wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:09
dans79 wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:04
Ryar wrote:
23 Jul 2021, 07:00
I take it that you are implying there are no possibilities of any sort of internal injuries to a driver in modern day sports cars and that there are zero chances of long term impacts to brain, that are not apparent in the immediate aftermath.
no, I'm saying your last few points of argument are faulty, because of the data you are using to support them.
You are saying, if there are no "in driver" censors, "in car" sensor impact cannot be used to say that is the same impact on the driver. That was the point of argument and now you are moving away from it. The article says, they use the car impact number as a reference to assess the driver.
https://www.fia.com/news/biometric-gloves-set-f1-debut
I'm think we would be given the highest, it makes more drama which ever it was. A flying arm or seat base, which ever stopped the quickest
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.