2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Lock2nl]

I think RBR know they won't get a change to Lewis's penalty. I think they are hoping for clearer guidance on when a corner should be conceded etc and, hopefully, more consistent stewarding.

Or they're just using every tool available to them in a tight championship year.

Personally I just wish Horner and Marko came across better in the press. They seem easy to dislike, similar to some of the other teams - AM for example and their whining about the aero rules earlier this season. Meanwhile Toto, Seidl and their ilk always remains calm. Maybe that's just me.

Toto has been calm because he could afford to stay calm for many, many years. If you read his words over the last two, three weeks he clearly stirred the pot on purpose. Whatever you like better, it is nothing but personal preference.

[Jolle]

I think RBR know they won't get a change to Lewis's penalty. I think they are hoping for clearer guidance on when a corner should be conceded etc and, hopefully, more consistent stewarding.

Or they're just using every tool available to them in a tight championship year.

Personally I just wish Horner and Marko came across better in the press. They seem easy to dislike, similar to some of the other teams - AM for example and their whining about the aero rules earlier this season. Meanwhile Toto, Seidl and their ilk always remains calm. Maybe that's just me.

The incident itself won't come to the table, today is just a review if there is any new evidence to open the case. The common thought is that there isn't any, so no case will be opened. The only thing they might prove is their disrespect of the stewards and the FIA, which, in the heat of the championship, might come and bite them.

[Ryar]

And a huge chance it will backfire. Hamilton is used to this after all his years in the spotlight. Verstappen is known to be a bit more volatile (pushing Ocon, “I’m going to head but someone” after questions about his driving) and now has a team that puts oil on every fire. We’ve seen what this does with a driver (Vettel antics over the years well was a product of this environment).

Hamilton is also known to be troubled with good amount of pressure, as was the case in 2016. It was lack of such immense pressure that Hamilton has seemed calm. Just look at this year itself and see the mistakes. Who knows, if this pressure works out, Hamilton gets a revised penalty and he would potentially be rattled by handing over moral highground to Max and Red Bull and start making even more mistakes. Even if no revised penalty, it would push Hamilton to become more cautious and avoid making mistakes, that probably would cost more in the next event, unless he plans and covers all his bases well in the next incident, which is unlikely in the heat of the moment. For sure, it would make him more careful to not get caught in a storm again.

In 2016, he had Rosberg so worked up that he had him making ill planned moves, in Austria for instance. I know you want to believe that Verstappen is one cool dude, but history tells a different story as does the Hamilton-Rosberg years (or the few years battle with Vettel). At no point did Hamilton lost his cool (on track), while both Vettel and Rosberg did, on track, multiple times.

This is neither an argument about whether I think Verstappen is cool or not, nor is this about Vettel and Rosberg losing cool. My argument is only the point you made where Hamilton is somehow a calm and unperturbed guy, which he is not. 2011 is well established and his lost championship of 2016 too. Going offtrack in Imola or "accidentally" pushing the Magic button aren't examples of cool and calm behavior on track. We can nitpick microscopic differentials in a type of behavior. If a certain physical or psychological behavior has resulted in bad results, that's enough to argue that, Hamilton infact crumbles if the pressure comes. Whether it is a exact replica behavior like that of another driver's behavior, is a moot point.

<Personal stuff removed>

[paulo_f1]

And Verstappen won’t get thrown of his game with the shenanigans that have now resorted to again by Lewis. The only danger is Lewis doing it again. You can’t really guard yourself from someone tapping you out of a corner. Therefor I hope the punishment will get revised. This option needs to be off the table.

What option needs to be off the table, what has Lewis done again?

It was a pretty much a racing accident, the only reason any punishment was given was due to Hamilton not being tighter to the apex, therefore he was predominantly to blame. Max could have been less aggressive & given more room too.

Now most sensible, objective & experienced observers have this somewhere between 50/50 & 60/40 (Lewis/Verstappen blame wise); e.g. Leclerc, Ricciardo, Autosport, Sky, Auto Motor und Sport etc. The stewards only looked at the incident, not the fact that Lewis struggled to make the apex because Max had pinned him tight to the pit wall before the corner, nor the fact that Max had been aggressive banging wheels on the Wellington straight or in the sprint race.

Lewis has often backed out of 50/50 moves & when Max had been aggressive in Imola, Spain etc, when the championship points were much closer. I'm not saying Lewis is an angel, but he's very fair and much less aggressive normally than Max.

Max can be as aggressive & uncompromising as he likes, but what would be the point of Lewis backing out of a 50/50 again at Silverstone, with the points gap so large? Lewis would fall further behind if he doesn't make the pass stick, Max had much more to lose in a 50/50 but didn't realise it. He's a smart guy, maybe he will realise it in future, as he normally doesn't make the same mistake twice...

Personally, I find the 'holier than thou' attitude of Horner and Mateschitz pretty sickening. I'd be hugely surprised if Red Bull have anything new that was materially valid, I expect it will be kicked straight out as per the last time Ferrari asked for a review.

[Sieper]

Max did not make a mistake. That is just the Lewis PR speaking.

Yes, this needs to not happen again. Fight for position is totally fine, taking an opponent out, not.

[SiLo]

Max did not make a mistake. That is just the Lewis PR speaking.

Yes, this needs to not happen again. Fight for position is totally fine, taking an opponent out, not.

It's probably fairer to say that Max made 30% of a mistake and Lewis 70% of one

[paulo_f1]

I'm neither a great fan of Lewis, nor work for his PR team

Of course Max made a mistake. Not in terms of making a driving error & missing an apex, braking point etc, but one of judgement of the situation.

It was a split second one too & minor, so can be forgiven, but he judged he could be super aggressive & crowd Lewis against the pit wall & that he would then back out out of a 50/50 move, as he had earlier in the season.

The fact is the dynamic & situation was different, Lewis didn't back out, Max then gave the minimum room he could get away with & subsequently ended up in the wall, with a swing of 25 points away.

There will be no change of punishment (unless Red Bull have an obvious smoking gun, that no one believes they actually have). This was fighting for position, pretty much every commentator, driver & expert has this as a racing incident (other than Red Bull & Max). I suspect there will be a change of behaviour from Max & he will be slightly more circumspect next time they're wheel to wheel this season.

If you think there was some premeditated crash plan like Senna had at Suzuka 1990, or that it was some sort of professional foul then I'm sorry, but that's tinfoil hat stuff, with too much risk & virtually impossible to pull off.

[Big Tea]

Had Max tyre not deflated explosively we would not be having this Hurrar, it would just have meant hi running wide and getting back on with the job.

Had either driver know this was going to happen I am sure both would have acted differently. A mistake is something that seems ok at the time but turns out not to be.

[paulo_f1]

Had Max tyre not deflated explosively we would not be having this Hurrar, it would just have meant hi running wide and getting back on with the job.

Had either driver know this was going to happen I am sure both would have acted differently. A mistake is something that seems ok at the time but turns out not to be.

Exactly, Max may have spun & may have even struggled to get round the corner like Leclerc did later in the race, had they not touched.

No one made a major mistake, no one tried to kill anyone else, no one committed a professional foul. The fan boy and keyboard warrior rubbish on social media is really pathetic.

What annoys me about the whole situation is the reaction from the top brass at Red Bull. I was really enjoying the battle this season between the two teams, even though I'm a supporter of neither. I'd thought both had been very balanced and Horner impressed me with his honest assessment of the Norris/Perez penalty in Austria.

To quote Christian Horner from Spain after Max shoved Hamilton wide at the start; “Turn 1 was mega. I mean Max, that was full Max Verstappen – he was just going for it – and he positioned the car fantastically well. He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence,”.

Why Max & Christian can't understand this isn't always going to be the case is beyond me... The problem is you can be as aggressive as you like & say the other guy has to get out of the way all the time, but at some point its not true. Max didn't get out of it, pinned Lewis in tight, swept across when Lewis went up the inside & ended up in the fence.

For most scenarios from a coming together, it had become a zero sum game for Hamilton, with the large points gap, if he backs out of the pass he loses. That's why the only lasting mistake with hindsight is really down to Max, if he did what Lewis did in Spain he was at worst second, still with a big points lead. He may still have won!

[adrianjordan]

I'm neither a great fan of Lewis, nor work for his PR team

Of course Max made a mistake. Not in terms of making a driving error & missing an apex, braking point etc, but one of judgement of the situation.

It was a split second one too & minor, so can be forgiven, but he judged he could be super aggressive & crowd Lewis against the pit wall & that he would then back out out of a 50/50 move, as he had earlier in the season.

The fact is the dynamic & situation was different, Lewis didn't back out, Max then gave the minimum room he could get away with & subsequently ended up in the wall, with a swing of 25 points away.

There will be no change of punishment (unless Red Bull have an obvious smoking gun, that no one believes they actually have). This was fighting for position, pretty much every commentator, driver & expert has this as a racing incident (other than Red Bull & Max). I suspect there will be a change of behaviour from Max & he will be slightly more circumspect next time they're wheel to wheel this season.

If you think there was some premeditated crash plan like Senna had at Suzuka 1990, or that it was some sort of professional foul then I'm sorry, but that's tinfoil hat stuff, with too much risk & virtually impossible to pull off.

This is one of the most sensible posts on this matter.

[Pany]

You are right, i think redbull know well the red flag and restart are the real problem. Not easy to attack race director, who gave big present exclusively to lewis. The recent approaches are meant to organise a different strategy to contrat fia-mercedes alliance

I'm neither a great fan of Lewis, nor work for his PR team

Of course Max made a mistake. Not in terms of making a driving error & missing an apex, braking point etc, but one of judgement of the situation.

It was a split second one too & minor, so can be forgiven, but he judged he could be super aggressive & crowd Lewis against the pit wall & that he would then back out out of a 50/50 move, as he had earlier in the season.

The fact is the dynamic & situation was different, Lewis didn't back out, Max then gave the minimum room he could get away with & subsequently ended up in the wall, with a swing of 25 points away.

There will be no change of punishment (unless Red Bull have an obvious smoking gun, that no one believes they actually have). This was fighting for position, pretty much every commentator, driver & expert has this as a racing incident (other than Red Bull & Max). I suspect there will be a change of behaviour from Max & he will be slightly more circumspect next time they're wheel to wheel this season.

If you think there was some premeditated crash plan like Senna had at Suzuka 1990, or that it was some sort of professional foul then I'm sorry, but that's tinfoil hat stuff, with too much risk & virtually impossible to pull off.

This is one of the most sensible posts on this matter.

[Sieper]

Only if he left the hyperbole at the end out. This to me was more than just a contact, there was intent, Lewis never seemed out of control of his car, or at least he had enough control to hit Max on the rear wheel whilst himself being not really in the turn yet (car still stable) while Max already was (car relatively unstable). The outcome of such cases is predictable (at least in the manner executed) and it did happen in that way also.

You know what, we can talk long about it or short (more then long enough). I had several sleepless nights over this, that is how upsetting it was to me, but unless the appeal still has some success nothing will change.

I hope not to see this again but I deeply fear it will “max needs to show me respect”. It was said already.

[Wouter]

[El Scorchio]

You know what, we can talk long about it or short (more then long enough). I had several sleepless nights over this, that is how upsetting it was to me...

If that's genuinely true, then I'd seriously recommend a little step back or a breather. It's ONLY sport and entertainment. It shouldn't be giving anyone sleepless nights.

[SuperCNJ]

I'm neither a great fan of Lewis, nor work for his PR team

Of course Max made a mistake. Not in terms of making a driving error & missing an apex, braking point etc, but one of judgement of the situation.

It was a split second one too & minor, so can be forgiven, but he judged he could be super aggressive & crowd Lewis against the pit wall & that he would then back out out of a 50/50 move, as he had earlier in the season.

The fact is the dynamic & situation was different, Lewis didn't back out, Max then gave the minimum room he could get away with & subsequently ended up in the wall, with a swing of 25 points away.

There will be no change of punishment (unless Red Bull have an obvious smoking gun, that no one believes they actually have). This was fighting for position, pretty much every commentator, driver & expert has this as a racing incident (other than Red Bull & Max). I suspect there will be a change of behaviour from Max & he will be slightly more circumspect next time they're wheel to wheel this season.

If you think there was some premeditated crash plan like Senna had at Suzuka 1990, or that it was some sort of professional foul then I'm sorry, but that's tinfoil hat stuff, with too much risk & virtually impossible to pull off.

Very well said. My guess is that RB will have found some data to "prove" that Hamilton wouldn't have made the corner, somehow. But I remain skeptical as these are almost always based on many hypothetical assumptions.

I think the whole situation reminds me of when Leclerc first joined Ferrari and was fighting with Max. On his first couple of fights with Max, he sensibly backed out as he wasn't aware how far he could push the rules. But then he realised he could be more aggressive and also learned how Max drove which was a turning point for Leclerc. He never conceded an inch to Max after that and you could see Max picking up on this, giving him a bit more respect.