2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[Bill]

if Rbr win these championship it will be because of the genious of Max and Honda Newey not so sure .that car in the hands of mere mortal it is midfield .perez has scored less points than Yuki in the last four races thats how bad he is .Gasly in the AT is far more convincing

[F1NAC]

if Rbr win these championship it will be because of the genious of Max and Honda Newey not so sure .that car in the hands of mere mortal it is midfield .perez has scored less points than Yuki in the last four races thats how bad he is .Gasly in the AT is far more convincing

If RBR wins this years championship it will be because they had better car.
If the car is not among the best it won't win the race, doesn't matter who is driving.

[Bill]

no need for personal attacks the results speak for themselves if Bottas was driving that car he would not be scoring podiums like in Merc the driver car combination is important and if the team fails to deliver a car that both drivers can deliver good results then they havent done a good jop they wont win the constructors champion .and yes Honda built the best pu ,and Max is putting that car where it dont belong

[SiLo]

if Rbr win these championship it will be because of the genious of Max and Honda Newey not so sure .that car in the hands of mere mortal it is midfield .perez has scored less points than Yuki in the last four races thats how bad he is .Gasly in the AT is far more convincing

If RBR wins this years championship it will be because they had better car. Jesus stop being so delusional. If the car is not among the best it won't win the race, doesn't matter who is driving.

It's clearly been the better car so far this year and I assume will remain so for the second half of the season. Mercedes will likely have a chance to win the WCC because Bottas is performing at a much higher level than Perez, and they COULD nick the WDC because it's regularly 2v1 at the front.

That being said, I think Max has been the best driver on the grid this year so his current position is fully deserved. I will agree though, that Max is no god like some of his fans make him out to be (and neither is Hamilton for that matter).

[Bandit1216]

if Rbr win these championship it will be because of the genious of Max and Honda Newey not so sure .that car in the hands of mere mortal it is midfield .perez has scored less points than Yuki in the last four races thats how bad he is .Gasly in the AT is far more convincing

If RBR wins this years championship it will be because they had better car. Jesus stop being so delusional. If the car is not among the best it won't win the race, doesn't matter who is driving.

Agree. When the cars are very equal, the driver might have the final edge. But only when they are 5-seconds-per-race-ish close. I also think Max is the best at the moment, but not seconds faster than Lewis. Have you seen Lewis in 2007 when he almost became a rookie champ next to Alonso?

[basti313]

if Rbr win these championship it will be because of the genious of Max and Honda Newey not so sure .that car in the hands of mere mortal it is midfield .perez has scored less points than Yuki in the last four races thats how bad he is .Gasly in the AT is far more convincing

If RBR wins this years championship it will be because they had better car. Jesus stop being so delusional. If the car is not among the best it won't win the race, doesn't matter who is driving.

Agree. When the cars are very equal, the driver might have the final edge. But only when they are 5-seconds-per-race-ish close. I also think Max is the best at the moment, but not seconds faster than Lewis. Have you seen Lewis in 2007 when he almost became a rookie champ next to Alonso?

Yes, he threw it away. If you watch the description on how Alo won in 2006 you will find that McLaren was very concerned about the fact that he needs to adapt hugely to their car. We have seen a massively compromised Alo in this year. McLaren had the fastest car BY FAR and just threw it away together with their drivers. No idea, why this should be positive for anyone involved...
It is the very same with RedBull in 2009. They did not lose to Brawn because Brawn had the better car. They lost because Vet had 5 races without any point and mostly because of their own faults.

[SiLo]

If RBR wins this years championship it will be because they had better car. Jesus stop being so delusional. If the car is not among the best it won't win the race, doesn't matter who is driving.

Agree. When the cars are very equal, the driver might have the final edge. But only when they are 5-seconds-per-race-ish close. I also think Max is the best at the moment, but not seconds faster than Lewis. Have you seen Lewis in 2007 when he almost became a rookie champ next to Alonso?

Yes, he threw it away. If you watch the description on how Alo won in 2006 you will find that McLaren was very concerned about the fact that he needs to adapt hugely to their car. We have seen a massively compromised Alo in this year. McLaren had the fastest car BY FAR and just threw it away together with their drivers. No idea, why this should be positive for anyone involved...
It is the very same with RedBull in 2009. They did not lose to Brawn because Brawn had the better car. They lost because Vet had 5 races without any point and mostly because of their own faults.

Brawn absolutely had the better car in the first part of the season. RB really found some speed part way through and became a regular challenger.

[dxpetrov]

Not sure what is wrong to some for having a 'better car''?! I thought that's something that every team and fan wanted.

[basti313]

Agree. When the cars are very equal, the driver might have the final edge. But only when they are 5-seconds-per-race-ish close. I also think Max is the best at the moment, but not seconds faster than Lewis. Have you seen Lewis in 2007 when he almost became a rookie champ next to Alonso?

Yes, he threw it away. If you watch the description on how Alo won in 2006 you will find that McLaren was very concerned about the fact that he needs to adapt hugely to their car. We have seen a massively compromised Alo in this year. McLaren had the fastest car BY FAR and just threw it away together with their drivers. No idea, why this should be positive for anyone involved...
It is the very same with RedBull in 2009. They did not lose to Brawn because Brawn had the better car. They lost because Vet had 5 races without any point and mostly because of their own faults.

Brawn absolutely had the better car in the first part of the season. RB really found some speed part way through and became a regular challenger.

Did you ever look at the WDC standings at the end and how often RB scored 0 points?
They genuinely lost it, to a small part on reliability and on a big part by strategy and drivers.

I think it is remarkably similar to how Merc is not performing at 100% in stategy and driving this season. The two cars are super close. Maybe the closest we ever had. While with the fight in 2009 the RB team was completely unexperienced, unexperienced fast driver, slow Nr2 the Brawn team was much more on the edge in strategy and driving. Today the Brawn team has a slow Nr2, a Nr1 driver who goes into Q as if he would drive against Rosberg and a strategy team that is surprised that they are not 1sec faster than the rest of the grid.
On the other hand the VER team is performing at maximum. If he would not have driven into the gravel in Stone or hit Lando in Hungary (I do not want to trigger another ying yang on this) imagine how far ahead he would be with a car where you can discuss over 100 pages which one is on average 0.1sec faster. Also quite similar to the stunt Button pulled in 2009 when he collected every point he could get.

The same for the Nr 2.: Per had good drives, but he does not play any role in the championship. Monaco was the only time he took points from Hamilton (2?). Bar in 2009 also just took 2 points from VET.

In summary: To me it looks like we have a real fight between equal cars. Until today I think VER and his team is doing a better job and will win this if it goes on like this. And this is not because of the car, but because Merc lost it.

[Just_a_fan]

Yes, he threw it away. If you watch the description on how Alo won in 2006 you will find that McLaren was very concerned about the fact that he needs to adapt hugely to their car. We have seen a massively compromised Alo in this year. McLaren had the fastest car BY FAR and just threw it away together with their drivers. No idea, why this should be positive for anyone involved...
It is the very same with RedBull in 2009. They did not lose to Brawn because Brawn had the better car. They lost because Vet had 5 races without any point and mostly because of their own faults.

Brawn absolutely had the better car in the first part of the season. RB really found some speed part way through and became a regular challenger.

Did you ever look at the WDC standings at the end and how often RB scored 0 points?
They genuinely lost it, to a small part on reliability and on a big part by strategy and drivers.

At the start of the season, the Brawn was the best car. They had figured out the front wing endplates and the effect of outwash supporting the rear end of the car. Even Red Bull, with Newey, started the season with very basic front wing endplates. The double diffuser wasn't the huge thing that the teams made of it at the time - Brawn himself even said at the time that the other teams were looking at the wrong end of the car.

The result was Button winning 6 of the first 7 races. He had only 2 podiums in the rest of the season and didn't win another race that year after Turkey - although Rubens did take a couple of wins.

Once Red Bull figured out what Brawn were doing, they became the best car. McLaren developed their car too and ended up taking 4 poles and 2 wins in the second half of the season. Ironically, that helped Brawn's season too by taking points away from Red Bull. I remember Button screaming over the radio "how has this car become so rubbish" (or words less polite than that!) later in the season.

Anyway, it's all an interesting sideshow and not that relevant here.

[SiLo]

Yes, he threw it away. If you watch the description on how Alo won in 2006 you will find that McLaren was very concerned about the fact that he needs to adapt hugely to their car. We have seen a massively compromised Alo in this year. McLaren had the fastest car BY FAR and just threw it away together with their drivers. No idea, why this should be positive for anyone involved...
It is the very same with RedBull in 2009. They did not lose to Brawn because Brawn had the better car. They lost because Vet had 5 races without any point and mostly because of their own faults.

Brawn absolutely had the better car in the first part of the season. RB really found some speed part way through and became a regular challenger.

Did you ever look at the WDC standings at the end and how often RB scored 0 points?
They genuinely lost it, to a small part on reliability and on a big part by strategy and drivers.

I think it is remarkably similar to how Merc is not performing at 100% in stategy and driving this season. The two cars are super close. Maybe the closest we ever had. While with the fight in 2009 the RB team was completely unexperienced, unexperienced fast driver, slow Nr2 the Brawn team was much more on the edge in strategy and driving. Today the Brawn team has a slow Nr2, a Nr1 driver who goes into Q as if he would drive against Rosberg and a strategy team that is surprised that they are not 1sec faster than the rest of the grid.
On the other hand the VER team is performing at maximum. If he would not have driven into the gravel in Stone or hit Lando in Hungary (I do not want to trigger another ying yang on this) imagine how far ahead he would be with a car where you can discuss over 100 pages which one is on average 0.1sec faster. Also quite similar to the stunt Button pulled in 2009 when he collected every point he could get.

The same for the Nr 2.: Per had good drives, but he does not play any role in the championship. Monaco was the only time he took points from Hamilton (2?). Bar in 2009 also just took 2 points from VET.

In summary: To me it looks like we have a real fight between equal cars. Until today I think VER and his team is doing a better job and will win this if it goes on like this. And this is not because of the car, but because Merc lost it.

My point was that Brawn had the better car in the first part of the season, which was not wrong. I did not say anything about the second half of the season or even just after the 7th/8th race. I agree with your sentiment mostly, just that initially, the best car was definitely the Brawn.

[basti313]

Brawn absolutely had the better car in the first part of the season. RB really found some speed part way through and became a regular challenger.

Did you ever look at the WDC standings at the end and how often RB scored 0 points?
They genuinely lost it, to a small part on reliability and on a big part by strategy and drivers.

I think it is remarkably similar to how Merc is not performing at 100% in stategy and driving this season. The two cars are super close. Maybe the closest we ever had. While with the fight in 2009 the RB team was completely unexperienced, unexperienced fast driver, slow Nr2 the Brawn team was much more on the edge in strategy and driving. Today the Brawn team has a slow Nr2, a Nr1 driver who goes into Q as if he would drive against Rosberg and a strategy team that is surprised that they are not 1sec faster than the rest of the grid.
On the other hand the VER team is performing at maximum. If he would not have driven into the gravel in Stone or hit Lando in Hungary (I do not want to trigger another ying yang on this) imagine how far ahead he would be with a car where you can discuss over 100 pages which one is on average 0.1sec faster. Also quite similar to the stunt Button pulled in 2009 when he collected every point he could get.

The same for the Nr 2.: Per had good drives, but he does not play any role in the championship. Monaco was the only time he took points from Hamilton (2?). Bar in 2009 also just took 2 points from VET.

In summary: To me it looks like we have a real fight between equal cars. Until today I think VER and his team is doing a better job and will win this if it goes on like this. And this is not because of the car, but because Merc lost it.

My point was that Brawn had the better car in the first part of the season, which was not wrong. I did not say anything about the second half of the season or even just after the 7th/8th race. I agree with your sentiment mostly, just that initially, the best car was definitely the Brawn.

Absolutely. I was taking the average. Like for example RB took a 1-2 in China also early. On average the cars were equal, but while Button only had some start issues that I can not pinpoint at the moment, RB lost a lot of points with crashes and errors through the year....in my point of view easily the 10 points that cost them the WDC. Just take the 5 points for the crash in Monaco and the speeding in the pitlane in Spore and you are there...

This brings me to the comparison of today's competition. Of course the cars do not have the swing as you correctly point out, but in the end we again have similar car performance if we average over the season and it looks to me again that one car is loosing it and the other car winning it...not because one car is better but because the teams do operate at different levels.

[JordanMugen]

Perez has a fair number of years of experience over Gasly who is also in his 4th year of F1 compared to Yuki in his first year who is also the youngest current F1 driver. Driver line up is set for next year, though Albon probably should be in Alpha Tauri if for points reasons. Seem AT is still meant to develop future RedBull drivers, and Yuki does have Honda backing going for him.

Will there be backing even when Honda engine will now be a Redbull engine?

Yes. Honda are still manufacturing the engines in 2022. The support of Honda is very important to the Red Bull engine program. Without the support of Honda, there is no way Red Bull can create their engine program -- at least not in this form, not in time for the 2022 season or even 2023 season.

I guess Red Bull could use Renault for one season and then try to design their own engine from scratch for 2023, but I doubt it would be terribly competitive!

"Backing" doesn't have to mean a direct transfer of money from Honda to AT after all. AT and RBR are both already receiving their power units for free (in 2021). Rather, having Tsunoda continuing to drive could be part of the ongoing goodwill and part of a discount on the ongoing deal for RB to use Honda power unit intellectual property in 2022.

[ringo]

Redbull will not design their own engine.
They will use the honda unit as the basic design and just have a team of people to keep the testing, parts inventory and management going.
I dont think they will do anything outside of upgrading the engine bit by bit. They dont like like they are capable of a completely new design that will be competitive in such a short space of time.

[johnny vee]

Hello all, could I pick your collective minds?
If Redbull takes an engine penalty in Monza, could they do it like this?
New engine in on friday, do FP1 then Qualy for Sprint race, then take 10 place grid penalty for Sprint race, Max could maybe get up to atleast 5th place in sprint race for a better start on sunday.
I'm only asking as I think there is a grey area with the sprint race, its not a qualy, it is a mini race, thats what FIA reminds the commentators. So is there a 'new power unit' loophole here?