2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[etusch]

Hope fia will not ban bringing update to car

Mercedes driver Lewis Hamilton said that Red Bull has accelerated with the latest update and they need to do something.

https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/hamil ... i/6662374/

[godlameroso]

I was about to down my daily Red Bull, when I saw something on the can, what is "solo Q"

*edit ohhhh it's League of Legends.

[Gillian]

Edited since i found the time to add a source

In an interview with sky Horner quite literally said that the car was built around Max' driving style:

Both in qualifying and in the race, the Mexican is clearly number two in the team. How does Horner explain that?
He refers to the special characteristics of the current RB16B and says that the car "certainly developed around Max' driving style", as the team boss puts it.

With regards to the drivers' involvement in development:

But by 2022, Perez will find it easier, says Horner. Formula 1 would then open a whole new chapter and technically start "from scratch". [...] In fact, Red Bull Perez has already been involved in "preparatory work" for 2022, says Horner. "That will of course intensify in the second half of the year. Checo will play a very active role there."

He also said that Max likes a nervous car on corner entry.

"This car is very nervous at the corner entry, as Max likes it," Red Bull team boss Horner said.

...
Those quotes are all from sky, that was after they confirmed Perez but before the Belgian GP when Horner explained why they kept him and why he was struggling.

So going by Horner's very own words it wouldn't really be a myth, both that a car will inevitably end up suiting a driver if he's with the team for long enough and that some drivers prefer a (obviously still balanced) but oversteery/nervous car on entry.

I don't think it would take a lot of effort to find more things said by Christian Horner that are not true or atleast not the entire truth.

Verstappen, like Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher, Senna.... is an exceptional driver that can adapt to anything. I don't believe for a second Verstappen wants a nervous frontend. Go watch one of the documentaries about his career and he will literally explain he wants a balanced car that is predictable, just like every other driver.

I think if you look at the past and the cars where Adrian Newey have been involved, they always where a little edgy. Maybe because of his talent to make it aerodynamically efficient? I am guessing here, but you could definitely see it in the mclaren back then.

To me this just sounds like Christian Horner is using the talent (adaptability) of Verstappen to draw the attention away of the weakness (relative) of their car to make Perez look a little better while also taking into account the cars of next year are so different from the current cars, the gap might just be a little less big between the two (which I don't expect personally).

[Ryar]

Hope fia will not ban bringing update to car

Mercedes driver Lewis Hamilton said that Red Bull has accelerated with the latest update and they need to do something.

https://tr.motorsport.com/f1/news/hamil ... i/6662374/

I won't be surprised if they do.

[darkpino]

Edited since i found the time to add a source

In an interview with sky Horner quite literally said that the car was built around Max' driving style:

Both in qualifying and in the race, the Mexican is clearly number two in the team. How does Horner explain that?
He refers to the special characteristics of the current RB16B and says that the car "certainly developed around Max' driving style", as the team boss puts it.

With regards to the drivers' involvement in development:

But by 2022, Perez will find it easier, says Horner. Formula 1 would then open a whole new chapter and technically start "from scratch". [...] In fact, Red Bull Perez has already been involved in "preparatory work" for 2022, says Horner. "That will of course intensify in the second half of the year. Checo will play a very active role there."

He also said that Max likes a nervous car on corner entry.

"This car is very nervous at the corner entry, as Max likes it," Red Bull team boss Horner said.

...
Those quotes are all from sky, that was after they confirmed Perez but before the Belgian GP when Horner explained why they kept him and why he was struggling.

So going by Horner's very own words it wouldn't really be a myth, both that a car will inevitably end up suiting a driver if he's with the team for long enough and that some drivers prefer a (obviously still balanced) but oversteery/nervous car on entry.

I don't think it would take a lot of effort to find more things said by Christian Horner that are not true or atleast not the entire truth.

Verstappen, like Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher, Senna.... is an exceptional driver that can adapt to anything. I don't believe for a second Verstappen wants a nervous frontend. Go watch one of the documentaries about his career and he will literally explain he wants a balanced car that is predictable, just like every other driver.

I think if you look at the past and the cars where Adrian Newey have been involved, they always where a little edgy. Maybe because of his talent to make it aerodynamically efficient? I am guessing here, but you could definitely see it in the mclaren back then.

To me this just sounds like Christian Horner is using the talent (adaptability) of Verstappen to draw the attention away of the weakness (relative) of their car to make Perez look a little better while also taking into account the cars of next year are so different from the current cars, the gap might just be a little less big between the two (which I don't expect personally).

Again: having a balanced car really comes down to driving style suited to the setup/car. Someone who trailbrakes more will have a harder time in a car which is more prone to oversteer for example. Where someone who trailbrakes less will find it perfectly balanced or maybe even understeering.

A good driver indeed can adapt to changing situations but that doesn’t make it strange that right now Perez is like the third driver (fourth if you count Ricciardo also) who fails next to Verstappen

[Hammerfist]

Edited since i found the time to add a source

In an interview with sky Horner quite literally said that the car was built around Max' driving style:



With regards to the drivers' involvement in development:


He also said that Max likes a nervous car on corner entry.
...
Those quotes are all from sky, that was after they confirmed Perez but before the Belgian GP when Horner explained why they kept him and why he was struggling.

So going by Horner's very own words it wouldn't really be a myth, both that a car will inevitably end up suiting a driver if he's with the team for long enough and that some drivers prefer a (obviously still balanced) but oversteery/nervous car on entry.

I don't think it would take a lot of effort to find more things said by Christian Horner that are not true or atleast not the entire truth.

Verstappen, like Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher, Senna.... is an exceptional driver that can adapt to anything. I don't believe for a second Verstappen wants a nervous frontend. Go watch one of the documentaries about his career and he will literally explain he wants a balanced car that is predictable, just like every other driver.

I think if you look at the past and the cars where Adrian Newey have been involved, they always where a little edgy. Maybe because of his talent to make it aerodynamically efficient? I am guessing here, but you could definitely see it in the mclaren back then.

To me this just sounds like Christian Horner is using the talent (adaptability) of Verstappen to draw the attention away of the weakness (relative) of their car to make Perez look a little better while also taking into account the cars of next year are so different from the current cars, the gap might just be a little less big between the two (which I don't expect personally).

Again: having a balanced car really comes down to driving style suited to the setup/car. Someone who trailbrakes more will have a harder time in a car which is more prone to oversteer for example. Where someone who trailbrakes less will find it perfectly balanced or maybe even understeering.

A good driver indeed can adapt to changing situations but that doesn’t make it strange that right now Perez is like the third driver (fourth if you count Ricciardo also) who fails next to Verstappen

Yes. Even in sim racing, sometimes I try setups from guys that are really fast, also known as aliens and I find them undriveable. I'm sure this happens in the real world as well. From what I've read Verstappen is a guy that likes to rotate the car early on entry, keep the car flat through the corner, he puts relatively little lock on the wheel and turns the car mostly with the throttle. A driver like that probably needs a pointy front end and a loose rear which he can control. Most drivers will find that balance hard to deal with.

It will be interesting to see if/when Verstappen leaves Redbull does he continues to be so far ahead of his teammates. Will his new team give him the same balance he had at Redbull at the expense of his teammates?

[darkpino]

I agree with others here that the great drivers more easy adapt to changing conditions, Max does that also as you can see in a rain race or for example Hockenheim 2019 with constantly changing conditions. I think he’ll be just fine in other cars, just needs a little bit of time

[Gillian]

I think you are confusing car design and car setup. Car setup is where driver preference matters, not car design. A car is not designed around the preferences of a driver. A well designed car can be setup to any driving style. What I call a myth is the fact cars are so customized for a single driver, others can not drive it. Exceptional drivers can adapt to more than average drivers (all relative, no F1 driver is average). The correlation that those drivers adapt and perform and others don't, means the car is build to cater to said driver... is wrong.

[Gillian]

Edited since i found the time to add a source

In an interview with sky Horner quite literally said that the car was built around Max' driving style:



With regards to the drivers' involvement in development:


He also said that Max likes a nervous car on corner entry.
...
Those quotes are all from sky, that was after they confirmed Perez but before the Belgian GP when Horner explained why they kept him and why he was struggling.

So going by Horner's very own words it wouldn't really be a myth, both that a car will inevitably end up suiting a driver if he's with the team for long enough and that some drivers prefer a (obviously still balanced) but oversteery/nervous car on entry.

I don't think it would take a lot of effort to find more things said by Christian Horner that are not true or atleast not the entire truth.

Verstappen, like Hamilton, Alonso, Schumacher, Senna.... is an exceptional driver that can adapt to anything. I don't believe for a second Verstappen wants a nervous frontend. Go watch one of the documentaries about his career and he will literally explain he wants a balanced car that is predictable, just like every other driver.

I think if you look at the past and the cars where Adrian Newey have been involved, they always where a little edgy. Maybe because of his talent to make it aerodynamically efficient? I am guessing here, but you could definitely see it in the mclaren back then.

To me this just sounds like Christian Horner is using the talent (adaptability) of Verstappen to draw the attention away of the weakness (relative) of their car to make Perez look a little better while also taking into account the cars of next year are so different from the current cars, the gap might just be a little less big between the two (which I don't expect personally).

Again: having a balanced car really comes down to driving style suited to the setup/car. Someone who trailbrakes more will have a harder time in a car which is more prone to oversteer for example. Where someone who trailbrakes less will find it perfectly balanced or maybe even understeering.

A good driver indeed can adapt to changing situations but that doesn’t make it strange that right now Perez is like the third driver (fourth if you count Ricciardo also) who fails next to Verstappen

See my response above. I think we are saying roughly the same thing. I hope the distinction I made above between design and setup makes sense.

Just a small disclaimer english is not my native language so some things might get lost in translation.

[Ryar]

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... a/6662986/

Ferrari sees double standard over Mercedes F1 engine saga

Binotto said that Ferrari had not lodged any of its own questions with the FIA regarding the Mercedes system, but confirmed he had spoken to Red Bull boss Christian Horner over the matter.

Asked if Ferrari was involved in any FIA action, Binotto said: “No, we didn't, even though like all teams and all manufacturers, we try to understand what our rivals are doing; we analyse the images and look at the GPS data.

“We had some doubts and we discussed them with Red Bull. I personally spoke to Christian Horner, but we did not submit any clarification questions to the FIA.”

Posting here in Red Bull team thread as it's the Red Bull that has filed the complaint and Ferrari has the same concerns.

[wowgr8]

Horner said this "complaint" is about clarification, so if it's deemed legal they can implement it in their own engine. Would that be possible this season? Or is it for next year's PU

[godlameroso]

I think it's important to note that teams banding together politically will keep Mercedes from having too much influence. The question is, would the teams have done this if Mercedes had not been as aggressive in it's political moves. Credit to RBR for taking advantage of the situation and adapting to it for not just their own benefit, but for other teams as well.

[Jolle]

Horner said this "complaint" is about clarification, so if it's deemed legal they can implement it in their own engine. Would that be possible this season? Or is it for next year's PU

Those clarifications are usually the more political way of trying to find out if a competitor is doing something new or in a grey area (or outright illegal of course). It’s asking the FIA if a certain design (on their own car) will be allowed. So, it’s not a complaint against Mercedes officially, but between the lines it is… these clarifications happen a lot and a lot of times it’s guesswork.
The FIA takes a look, and sends a letter to all teams if, the solution thought of by RedBull is legal or not, and if not legal, and you have it on your car, you can remove it without any ramifications.

[Just_a_fan]

I think it's important to note that teams banding together politically will keep Mercedes from having too much influence. The question is, would the teams have done this if Mercedes had not been as aggressive in it's political moves. Credit to RBR for taking advantage of the situation and adapting to it for not just their own benefit, but for other teams as well.

There's no way that Red Bull are doing anything to benefit the other teams. Anything they do will be intended entirely for their own benefit.

Ferrari will be happy to see Mercedes pegged back, yes, but not if they are just replaced by Red Bull instead.

If Red Bull end up back as the team to beat as they were in the Vettel years, the other teams will very soon be vocal against them. There is no love lost between any of them.

[RZS10]

I wanted to write one more thing with regards to the "car designed around a driver" topic as i don't believe anyone here actually fully disagrees with anyone else, it's all just fine distinctions between personal definitions of words so i'll try to keep it short.

Of course in the early design stage no engineering team will write "what does our driver like" on the board - it's "how can we make the fastest car within the regulatory framework" and tied to that is aero efficiency, mechanical grip etc but at some point in the process they will have to make sure that the drivers will be able to extract said performance - we know that teams talk about the setup window and moving or widening it during mid season development and i believe that if a driver is with the team for long enough his feedback will be used to make sure that this setup window will be chosen to fit his driving style and with that come potential compromises (the better the driver the smaller they are) but if one of them keeps getting changed he won't have any impact on that stage of development or fine tuning and will be limited by the setup window of the car.

There's enough interviews with Horner/Marko where they talk about Perez trying Max' setup 1:1 which he didn't like, trying his own old setup approaches that made the car slow etc.

So if Horner says the car developed around Max' driving style there's probably some truth to it, even though this obviously doesn't mean that this was the leading principle in development, rather that they did not have a second driver for long enough to have their input play much of a role in the fine tuning (via parts, not setup).

And i think all has been said about a "nervous" car, it's really just small differences and personal preferences between a bit more understeer or oversteer and obviously not about inherent massive tendencies of the car to do either since it's detrimental to performance.