2024 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[TeamKoolGreen]

The Toto and Max flirting seems to be intensifying. Christian Horner could flip the script on him and start talking about taking George Russell off his hands.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

The Toto and Max flirting seems to be intensifying. Christian Horner could flip the script on him and start talking about taking George Russell off his hands.

Can't wait for Horner to praise Russell as the grid's best driver at the moment.

[f1isgood]

Why is there so much doom and gloom in this thread now? Wheatley is not RB nor is Newey nor is Verstappen. I respect their talents in terms of engineering and driver ability but I think we need to wait and see what actually happens instead of speculative comments about their personal lives. I believe RBR will still be competitive for years to come. I'm not even a Rbr fan and I can say this.

Because people have a short memory. Red Bull haven't won a race in maybe 5 weekends, and there's already call for Wache's head about how he's a failure in some other thread lol.

Also, somehow credit attribution has become binary -- it's either Verstappen doing everything, or Newey doing everything and somehow the actual process involving ~1k people being dismissed. And the operations team gets extraordinarily criticized with a weak car, without taking into account multiple changes. Even at Spa there was complaints of a thrown win etc etc without ever suggesting where else to take an engine penalty.

I get it that people have heroes but the reality is that Austria/Dutch side of RB is what the majority in this forum in a nutshell have taken side to (because obviously Horner couldn't keep it inside his pants) and that clouds every discussion as Horner made himself an easy target.

Any decision is hardly weighed objectively with facts of the matter at play and every blame goes to Horner, instead of actually analyzing the situation. I said somewhere else, but scum trying to outdo scum is what has resulted in this divide, and the top brass at Red Bull like it or not is absolute scum. I would be extremely happy to see Helmut, Christian, Jos, Olivier, all leave for the good of the fans and the team. But they won't and unless Red Bull start winning continuously fans will keep bickering.

[MYsee]

Why is there so much doom and gloom in this thread now? Wheatley is not RB nor is Newey nor is Verstappen. I respect their talents in terms of engineering and driver ability but I think we need to wait and see what actually happens instead of speculative comments about their personal lives. I believe RBR will still be competitive for years to come. I'm not even a Rbr fan and I can say this.

Because people have a short memory. Red Bull haven't won a race in maybe 5 weekends, and there's already call for Wache's head about how he's a failure in some other thread lol.

Also, somehow credit attribution has become binary -- it's either Verstappen doing everything, or Newey doing everything and somehow the actual process involving ~1k people being dismissed. And the operations team gets extraordinarily criticized with a weak car, without taking into account multiple changes. Even at Spa there was complaints of a thrown win etc etc without ever suggesting where else to take an engine penalty.

I get it that people have heroes but the reality is that Austria/Dutch side of RB is what the majority in this forum in a nutshell have taken side to (because obviously Horner couldn't keep it inside his pants) and that clouds every discussion as Horner made himself an easy target.

Any decision is hardly weighed objectively with facts of the matter at play and every blame goes to Horner, instead of actually analyzing the situation. I said somewhere else, but scum trying to outdo scum is what has resulted in this divide, and the top brass at Red Bull like it or not is absolute scum. I would be extremely happy to see Helmut, Christian, Jos, Olivier, all leave for the good of the fans and the team. But they won't and unless Red Bull start winning continuously fans will keep bickering.

Just to add, all the drama hides the fact that Max is still the highest-scoring driver in the last 6 races despite not "winning" any of the last 4 races and taking the grid penalty in Spa. The domination of last year may be over but people seem to have lost sight of the fact that this is still a top F1 team.

The team still has issues, ala Perez's performance and getting more from upgrades, but it's going to finish the year with Max at the top of the driver standings and either 1/2 in the constructors. That's not exactly the worst place to be in.

[AR3-GP]

I'm not going to address the specific points in your post (f1isgood, MySee).

I will simply say that history teaches us many lessons. Nothing we are seeing is new. Red Bull was a dominant F1 team just as Williams, Ferrari, Mclaren, and Mercedes were before them. Then the cracks appeared, and it all fell apart. Those teams suffered for many years. Red Bull is not immune. It serves no purpose to ignore the past. All of the teams are the same. When the cracks start to appear, they all come crashing down the same way.

[taperoo2k]

Why is there so much doom and gloom in this thread now? Wheatley is not RB nor is Newey nor is Verstappen. I respect their talents in terms of engineering and driver ability but I think we need to wait and see what actually happens instead of speculative comments about their personal lives. I believe RBR will still be competitive for years to come. I'm not even a Rbr fan and I can say this.

What is RB as a team if not the sum of its parts? And many key personnel have left. Newey was there from near enough the beginning and instrumental to all of the success, as has Wheatley been there for going on 2 decades. Of course the team as an organisation will continue and there will be success given their facilities, budget etc but the team as we knew it for over 10 years isn't the same due to the death of mateschitz and resulting power struggle.

Power struggles often see teams fall apart, then it takes some time for things to settle and a rebuild to happen.
The problem for Redbull is they might not have the best power unit in '26. Or it will be competitive but be unreliable given RBPT is nowhere near as mature as say Mercedes engine factory.

What has happened in the past when Newey leaves a team is a decline, either a slow one or a fast one. It took McLaren a better part of a decade to get where they are now. Williams have been in the doldrums for a long time, with a win here and there.

Only question for Redbull is will they correct course quickly or will they stumble from one fiasco to another in terms of car design and the internal politics of the team.

Success in F1 can be fleeting. You are only as good as the last race. Max just has to keep outscoring Lando and he should win the title. More screw ups and McLaren getting it's act together could see Redbull lose the constructors and the drivers title.

[organic]

Pages filled about speculation on Jos and Max are unbearable to read. The fun to follow this thread (about Red Bull from a mainly technical perspective) is diminished greatly this way. Is the moderator on a holiday? I am sure several post are way below the standard this forum should have.

I think I will be away for a few weeks and come back when we start racing again.

Team threads are exempt from the usual forum standard that it is predominantly technical content

[Dunlay]

Pages filled about speculation on Jos and Max are unbearable to read. The fun to follow this thread (about Red Bull from a mainly technical perspective) is diminished greatly this way. Is the moderator on a holiday? I am sure several post are way below the standard this forum should have.

I think I will be away for a few weeks and come back when we start racing again.

Team threads are exempt from the usual forum standard that it is predominantly technical content

Does it license posters to show compulsive obsession to fight off opinions against a driver or his family and drag the discussion for pages? Fighting each post because it goes against my driver isn't what this forum should be. I saw a similar behaviour on VCARB thread by a particular poster.

IMO there has be some basic standard to stop arguments after making one post or two on a particular matter. That would be enough to show one's opinion, but "I will fight unto death to defend my driver against strangers' opinion on internet" is primitive behaviour.

[TNTHead]

Pages filled about speculation on Jos and Max are unbearable to read. The fun to follow this thread (about Red Bull from a mainly technical perspective) is diminished greatly this way. Is the moderator on a holiday? I am sure several post are way below the standard this forum should have.

I think I will be away for a few weeks and come back when we start racing again.

Team threads are exempt from the usual forum standard that it is predominantly technical content

Alright but it sure doesn't help the understanding of the current issues to go on about the past and/or the supposedly abusive nature of the Jos/Max relationship.

Apart from that, can a driver still has some private life? I think everyone on this forum should be reluctant to dive into that.

[JordanMugen]

I'm not going to address the specific points in your post (f1isgood, MySee).

I will simply say that history teaches us many lessons. Nothing we are seeing is new. Red Bull was a dominant F1 team just as Williams, Ferrari, Mclaren, and Mercedes were before them. Then the cracks appeared, and it all fell apart. Those teams suffered for many years. Red Bull is not immune. It serves no purpose to ignore the past. All of the teams are the same. When the cracks start to appear, they all come crashing down the same way.

For now, Red Bull still have lots of money (unlike the others apart from Ferrari and Mercedes who didn't have problems on that front). Obviously McLaren bought out Mercedes which was expensive and lost the backing of Mercedes, while Williams lost the backing of BMW.

If Ford RBPT is a disaster, presumably there will be a way to pivot to Honda power units?

I think it is unlikely RBR-Ford RBPT will fall out of the Top 5 WCC in the short to medium terms (3-4 seasons) like Williams-Cosworth & Williams-Toyota did (eventually becoming backmarkers as Williams-Renault 5-6 seasons later), but it depends if Ford RBPT is a complete disaster or not, of course.

If Ford RBPT units are over 100hp down (and the Audi units aren't that bad, of course Audi could be just as bad or worse), then certainly RBR and VCARB will be nailed to the last two rows. But (hopefully) the Ford RBPT units will be more competitive than that.

What has happened in the past when Newey leaves a team is a decline, either a slow one or a fast one. It took McLaren a better part of a decade to get where they are now. Williams have been in the doldrums for a long time, with a win here and there.

Attributing Newey to the decline of McLaren after 2013 is really a stretch IMO! Newey left in 2006 and McLaren remained a leading team until 2012.

While Williams declined faster, it was accompanied by Renault power units being replaced by privateer Mecachrome & Supertec power units whcih didn't receive the same rate of development. With Willis designed cars and BMW engines, Williams were reasonably comeptitive. Williams only started to struggle technically in 2005, two years after the departure of Willis (but again there is the factor of BMW using detuned 2004 power units that season for various reasons, instead of a 2005 development).

[AR3-GP]

I'm not going to address the specific points in your post (f1isgood, MySee).

I will simply say that history teaches us many lessons. Nothing we are seeing is new. Red Bull was a dominant F1 team just as Williams, Ferrari, Mclaren, and Mercedes were before them. Then the cracks appeared, and it all fell apart. Those teams suffered for many years. Red Bull is not immune. It serves no purpose to ignore the past. All of the teams are the same. When the cracks start to appear, they all come crashing down the same way.

For now, Red Bull still have lots of money (unlike the others apart from Ferrari and Mercedes who didn't have problems on that front). Obviously McLaren bought out Mercedes which was expensive and lost the backing of Mercedes, while Williams lost the backing of BMW.

If Ford RBPT is a disaster, presumably there will be a way to pivot to Honda power units?

I think it is unlikely RBR-Ford RBPT will fall out of the Top 5 WCC in the short to medium terms (3-4 seasons) like Williams-Cosworth & Williams-Toyota did (eventually becoming backmarkers as Williams-Renault 5-6 seasons later), but it depends if Ford RBPT is a complete disaster or not, of course.

I’m not saying that Red Bull will fall out of the top 5. Im just referring to the point that historically all of these teams went from dominating to no longer being able to compete for the championship. Whether they finished P3 or P4 in the championship with the third best car is no consolation when the objective is to win. You are either the one doing the winning, or losing.

[JordanMugen]

You are either the one doing the winning, or losing.

That's the poor attitude of Toto Wolff!

There is nothing wrong with being a solid top 5 WCC team.

Of course you aim to win as a larger F1 team, but if you don't and are only top 5 that's OK. If you're Alpine and aim to be Top 5 and then fail, that's a bigger problem IMO.

[Jurgen von Diaz]

What is a sporting director's job? What do you folks think, has Perez's continuation had anything to do with Wheatley's leaving?

[CMSMJ1]

The forum members were told by the moderators that you had to report a message before the whole discussion got out of hand.

I reported the first message yesterday at 21:00, because I could guess where it would go.

It is now 24 hours later and nothing has been done with the report and the whole discussion has gotten out of hand.

What is the point of reporting then?!

The moderation team are real people, with real lives who are trying to moderate endless childlike bickering and if we can't keep up with this effluent then perhaps there's some grace needed.

All members on here know what's appropriate or not and yet the moderation in some threads is Sisyphean in it's task.

I'm actually away, at the MotoGP, so should I take an hour or so to review and delete all these?

I'm not singling you out Wouter, but you know the fuel, air and heat to set the blaze and unless we lock the threads it's always going to have the same arsonists.

[CMSMJ1]

The forum members were told by the moderators that you had to report a message before the whole discussion got out of hand.

I reported the first message yesterday at 21:00, because I could guess where it would go.

It is now 24 hours later and nothing has been done with the report and the whole discussion has gotten out of hand.

What is the point of reporting then?!

I've reported similar in Mercedes threads and nothing has been done.

But when I publicly complained about moderating standards, I was accused of trying to to tell the mods how to mod. And I received board warnings which led to a ban. If you haven't had the same, you should be grateful.

As per my post with Wouter