Alonso technical level

[ISLAMATRON]

What I have concluded for myself, is that Alonso is not as good as many claim and that he has do to do anything spectaular without the Michilin tires as an advantage over his rivals.

But was he only driver using Michelins those days? Why others never managed to use them as good?

Kimi sure did seem to use them just as well, if not better(not mention JPM took some wins off of him(3)... but only for as long as the car would last... Fisi certainly didnt use them as well(1 win), as for the other Michilen shod teams? None of them really built a car capable of winning a race. McLaren & Renault won all the races that year.

[timbo]

Kimi sure did seem to use them just as well, if not better(not mention JPM took some wins off of him(3)... but only for as long as the car would last... Fisi certainly didnt use them as well(1 win), as for the other Michilen shod teams? None of them really built a car capable of winning a race. McLaren & Renault won all the races that year.

So, as always, it's not only the use of Michelins it's whole other things - Renault's fast and reliable car, problems of others, nothing new.
Actually I didn't care much about Alonso, but I have to admit that his ability to change his driving style, apparent from onboards from '05-'07 is impressive.
As to why Renault didn't improve this year you can find a whole lot of other reasons apart from Alonso's technical skill.
More so, if any team would state that car progress solely relies on driver's technical abilities I'd say it'd better fire its design department. Surely feedback is invaluable but it's not a driver's job to do team's homework.

[ISLAMATRON]

I can not bring forward any solid arguements against any of your points, but there was no doubt that a Michilen shod driver was gonna win the title in 2005, only question was which one? I can not say that Alonso was any better than Kimi that year. With Michilen winning every REAL race that year I still have to give the title to this guy...

[Giblet]

I find it hard to fault a team for aligning themselves with the correct tire supplier.

Bridgestone made horrible tires for the switch to no tire changes, and helped cost Ferrari even a remote chance at a title that year.

For sure Michelin helped Alonso win, but I would say Bridgestone helped them even more by making --- tires for Ferrari and company, and allowing the competitor to shine before leaving the sport on a high, and getting a WDC on their 100th anniversary.

Michelin did a bang up job, and I'm glad it has been recognized.

Since the beginning of this thread, I have yet to see someone post a point from ANYONE who has worked with Alonso in F1 saying that he is NOT of an EXTREMELY high technical level. All the engineers, all the drivers, all the team bosses, all the designers.

Until then, it is obvious under the umbrella of common sense and common knowledge that he is exactly as most have said. Even if you can find one periphery quote, the majority still rules.

Still waiting...........

[Rob W]

...there was no doubt that a Michilen shod driver was gonna win the title in 2005

...With Michilen winning every REAL race that year I still have to give the title to this guy...

Fair call. But if this is the argument to somehow take anything away from Alonso's two WDCs then this applies even more so to at least couple of Michael's WDCs as well. Bridgestone was, effectively, made specifically for Ferrari, designed alongside Ferrari, tested exclusively by Ferrari and (relatively common knowledge amongst those who work in F1) even paid particular care/attention to the sets which were to be used by Michael over all others.

Meanwhile the Michelin runners had to use a tire made for 2 or 3 key teams and whose data/input needed to be considered - resulting in a middle-ground tire suitable for all but none in particular.

And as Giblet says above, Bridgestone made a hash of it that year too. Can't exactly blame someone else winning because you screwed up.

[ISLAMATRON]

Difference being that MS won under all types of different conditions, Alonso really hasnt done anything spectacular since the end of the Michelin tire domination. Yeah he tied a rookie at McLaren, and picked up 1 lucky win, and put a couple of weak rookies in their place but nothing close to what Kimi, Massa or Hamilton has done in that same time.

He has this 1 more chance to prove himself to be the superior champion that many claim him to be, including himself... I'm rooting for Massa, never seen even a tinge of the "arrogance" out of him.

[PlatinumZealot]

I like watching arrogance and driver trash talk especially when it is backed up by aggression on the track.

That's why I'm a fan of Hamilton, Alonso, Sutil, Kubica and sometimes Webber. I always watch for those drivers. Things always go down when those guys are in the mix. So the arrogance is a plus for me. (I am watching you Vettel, Lewis has your card for next year!)

[Rob W]

Difference being that MS won under all types of different conditions, Alonso really hasnt done anything spectacular...

I can see how it could be argued that way as well - I was just making a point. How many WDC do you need to win before people stop saying ohh but it was because of x or y? One? Two?

Actually... It's because, over the year, all factors included, the winning driver had his game sorted more often than anyone else. That's what the WDC is. Whether he came 2nd in every race for the overall title is as irrelevant as if we find out years later that the car had some illicit technology. The result counts as a result in the record books exactly the same as if the threeway love-child of Senna, Prost and God were to win on pure driving merit.

[Rod_in_Chile]

Islamatron, a couple of things you might want to consider, firstly the Renault engine was underpowered last year, you can see that where ToroRosso were getting better results than RedBull at the end of the Season.
Secondly this years car was designed for KERS, the system not proving to be very useful, so I would guess that compromises had to be made to the cars center of balance, wheel base etc to fit the system, even when they stopped using the system they didn't redesign the chassis, and didn't someone mention that they car wasn't design for a DDD

[Timomies]

With Michilen winning every REAL race that year

Get your facts right man..

Alonso really hasnt done anything spectacular since the end of the Michelin tire domination. Yeah he tied a rookie at McLaren, and picked up 1 lucky win, and put a couple of weak rookies in their place but nothing close to what Kimi, Massa or Hamilton has done in that same time.

Do you mean that Kimi who got one more point than Alonso 2007 and then was trashed by Massa?

You used to be better at trolling [-X

[ISLAMATRON]

With Michilen winning every REAL race that year

Get your facts right man..

Do you mean that Kimi who got one more point than Alonso 2007 and then was trashed by Massa?

In the 2005 F1 season Michelin won every single race that year except for the USGP, and we know what happened there... you go get your facts right.

Yes That Kimi, that has won more races than Alonso since Michelin has departed fighting against much better teammates than Alonso has had.

Islamatron, a couple of things you might want to consider, firstly the Renault engine was underpowered last year, you can see that where ToroRosso were getting better results than RedBull at the end of the Season.
Secondly this years car was designed for KERS, the system not proving to be very useful, so I would guess that compromises had to be made to the cars center of balance, wheel base etc to fit the system, even when they stopped using the system they didn't redesign the chassis, and didn't someone mention that they car wasn't design for a DDD

Considered and rejected, Yes the renault was underpowered both this year and last, but it still won races(RBR this year), I happen to remember Senna winning 5 races in an underpowered Ford('93)... the very best allways rise up and overcome, but not by fixing races please. The McLaren & Ferrari were also designed for KERS, yet they had drivers which found a way to win(by other than fixing the race). Maybe if Alonso was as great a development driver as everyone claims him to be he would have advised them to not take off the KERS, as McLaren & Ferrari continued with it and took it to wins. As I have already pointed out, The renault in the hands of Alonso outqualified Hamilton's McLaren at nearly every race pre germany in '09... so the car had some potential in it... that potential was just not developed... and of course most of that lies on the team's shoulders, even though they were the first team to retrofit a DDD.

[Chaparral]

As I have already pointed out, The renault in the hands of Alonso outqualified Hamilton's McLaren at nearly every race pre germany in '09... so the car had some potential in it... that potential was just not developed... and of course most of that lies on the team's shoulders, even though they were the first team to retrofit a DDD.

That it was not developed is possibly correct - a driver has no say in the development strategy in the main - also maybe just maybe Renault knew they were going to pull the pin early in the year so no amount of input from a driver of Alonso's calibre made any difference at all the writing was on the wall - the car essentially was a pig and Alonso did like many before him put the car further up the grid than it deserved just like Webber did with Jaguar - no??

[Rod_in_Chile]

Renault were allowed to upgrade their engine which is why Webber and Vettel won races with it this year, the Renault Chassis was a pig, McLaren redesigned their car to get it to work properly and Ferrari could only find one track their car would work on properly.

The problems with the Renault were too great in my opinion to be overcome by the input of any driver, seems to me you may have a personal dislike of Alonso that has nothing to do with his ability and that you are indirectly ccusing him of being involved in the race fixing

[segedunum]

He might be decent in this department Alonso, but given how little the driver can directly affect the car then he's no better or worse than other decent driver around.

As we've seen at Renault versus other teams (over two years, no less), the deciding factor as to whether a car improves or not is the team and what the technical people do. Given that Alonso had a rather high opinion of his technical skills in 2007 ("I bring six tenths", "I do all the set up", et al) I think we can rather conclusively say that Alonso has an overinflated opinion of his technical skills and what he can do himself to improve a car.

I don't see where this thread goes now.

[timbo]

Given that Alonso had a rather high opinion of his technical skills in 2007 ("I bring six tenths", "I do all the set up", et al) I think we can rather conclusively say that Alonso has an overinflated opinion of his technical skills and what he can do himself to improve a car.

Well, dunno about "six tenths" but "I do all the set up" seems to be him merely stating the obvious - it was said that Lewis used his setup (at least at the first half of the season).