Tyre temperatures and Wet weather traction

[SMP]

This article by Mark Hughes http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type ... s&id=43892 seems to suggest McLaren's advantage over Ferrari in wet conditions are (at least partially) down to the way it maintains tyre temperature.

He says "At this stage of the race the McLaren had vastly more grip than the Ferrari because of the way the red car loses dry tyre temperature far more quickly and totally than the McLaren in wet conditions."

Would this really make such a difference in performance to explain Hamilton's advantage in the wet? Certainly, considering Kimi himself is no muck in the wet, I did think it would be some setup compromise that explains the huge difference in lap times compared to McLaren vs Ferrari in the wet.

If tyre temperature is the case, is this linked to the fundamental chassis used by Ferrari and something they cannot improve over the rest of the season?

I would like to understand this area more, if someone has a good idea.

Thanks!

[myurr]

From what's been said during race commentary it would appear that the major difference between the grooved dry tyres and the intermediates is the tread in the inters moves more, keeping the tyre temperature up despite the cooling effect of the water. So given that the McLaren runs their setup towards the upper limits of the dry tyres temperature range, as opposed to Ferrari who run near the bottom, then it makes sense that they are able to retain more temperature in the tyres and that it accounts for some of the difference.

I feel that at least some of the difference though is down to the drivers - Kimi generally outpaces Massa in the wet, and Lewis is usually much quicker than Heikki. It may be that Lewis is happier with the car sliding and moving around under him, and is better able to compensate and maintain momentum, given that this is closer to his way of driving even in the dry. This is especially beneficial in changeable conditions.

Mostly speculation and hearsay though

[SMP]

Ok. It makes sense that if you get the dry tyres upto temperature more quickly then your wets are also more likely to be warmer.

Is this temperature in the tyres determined by setup for individual tracks or something more fundamental, connected with the design of the chassis?

For example, if a team wanted it, could they change their setup to get more heat into their tyres? Ferrari, seems to be having this issue for a long time, so is this not possible at all or would it compromise their setup too much that they wont do it?

[WhiteBlue]

It certainly is an interesting issue. Driving in the rain with dry tyres is very difficult but driving with cold dry tyres is like driving on ice they say. If McLaren dissipate more energy and keep the tyre temperature 20 C higher it would be a tremendous advantage. It sound quite believable to me that this was the cause for Hamiltons ability to let Kimi pass and use his superior traction to outbreak him into la source. no doubt there will be a tyre temperature argument when the court of appeal meets. I expect McLaren to win this. In my view the crucial advantage was the tyre temperature and not the cutting of the chicane. I bet the stewards have not even considered that. of course McLaren would not want to advertise that they have rain setups which generate higher temperatures. it already gave them the edge at Silverstone. That wasn't all driving talent but setup must have played a role. on the other hand they have higher wear on tyres which has caught them out at times (Turkey comes to mind).

[myurr]

Again this is completely armchair knowledge, but I think that whilst it's a combination of a whole host of things, the suspension geometry is the primary contributor. I remember a few years back that McLaren were having problems heating their tyres which was compromising their qualifying run - Adrian Newey redesigned the suspension to fix the issue and they kicked bottom for the rest of the season.

As a side note this does work against McLaren on a drying track - remember Silverstone. Before Hamilton pitted and changed his tyres, Kimi was catching him and was slightly faster as Lewis overheated his tyres.

[timbo]

There was an interview with Bridgestone boss who said that difference between McLaren and Ferrari is in that McLaren relies more on mechanical grip and has slightly oversteering character while Ferrari is all about aero and is slightly understeering. When grip is low it is far easier to drive around corners in oversteering car.

[Jersey Tom]

McLaren might just know the tires better. I'd bet Bridgestone doesn't do full force and moment tests on its wet tires.. McLaren may have just stumbled on a better way of handling them.

Ferrari could easily make it up if they know which way to go. Could be as simple as a tire pressure change

[Ratatouille]

It seems it's not up to the tyres according to ferrari, although I'd find it a little bit strange that this explained all the issues ferrari has faced throughout the year:

http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2008/9/8422.html

[marcush.]

simply put,if Hamilton has the confidence to push the car under those conditions this will help keeping the temps in the tyres ,giving him the grip and the speed.

If the car is not confidence inspireing in those conditions,understeer in snap oversteer out you just cannot push ,have to be conservative to survive ,this lowers tyre temps even further ,shedding grip even more.

Don´t forget normally the tyres never ever touch the ground below 80°C ,as they are covered in the blankets until leaving the pits.Driving in PC conditions or rain is a new story.

My view is that those cars performing well in hot conditions work the tyres less than others (Ferrari,Toyota),wheras Mclaren do work the tyres harder effectively maybe 3-6 degrees higher temps.So very little change in ambient temps will kick either one out of the optimum operating window ,wich is maybe 10°wide.
The effect is:For Ferrari or toyota ,increasing temps equate higher performance,whereas Mclaren will not gain speed under those conditions.At lower ambient temps Ferrari can of course push harder to work the tyres more but this gain will be offset by the induced scrub(additional slip angle)to create the optimum temps.

[PlatinumZealot]

Also
The air flowing over the wings can cool the tyres differently between the cars..

[PlatinumZealot]

Well you guys can see that Renault is using my idea though in the opposite fashion.

http://www.f1technical.net/development/206

[Jersey Tom]

This kind of stuff has been thrown around in FSAE before... the big potential issue being that if you're pumping hot air to the rears you could really screw the balance of the car. Your rears are at temp and your fronts arent.. and the car will plow. Or you can overheat the rears where they become greasy, and the car will be oversteery.

Bridgestone's bad though.. seems multiple teams are having issues with tire temps.