2022 Oracle | Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[lh13]

Max won against a faster Mercedes car by performing better and making less mistake.

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[AeroDynamic]

Max won against a faster Mercedes car by performing better and making less mistake.

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Red Bull performed better than Mercedes and helped max win way more points than you think though.

faster also doesn't mean better package for taking points. You need a car that works well. Same with the engine. he had the advantage there throughout the season.

[chrisc90]

I think Merc had the faster car over all. (probably due to the rear flexi wing under the DRS flap hidden from cameras) But RB were way better on strategy and driver skill.

[PlatinumZealot]

Max won against a faster Mercedes car by performing better and making less mistake.

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Adrian Newey said his car was faster than the Mercedes, so can we stop these low key troll posts now? Why can't you be proud that the team did a good job! Max is just one person in the team, he did his job with what he was given, but the team deserves credit too. This is the team thread after all.

[Dee]

Max won against a faster Mercedes car by performing better and making less mistake.

Sent from my 21061119AG using Tapatalk

Adrian Newey said his car was faster than the Mercedes, so can we stop these low key troll posts now? Why can't you be proud that the team did a good job! Max is just one person in the team, he did his job with what he was given, but the team deserves credit too. This is the team thread after all.

Of course Newey would say that. The stats say different however, unless you are you the believe the word of every designer on the grid.

The absolute hypocrisy of you asking to stop troll posts after what you have just written

[Dee]

Max won against a faster Mercedes car by performing better and making less mistake.

Sent from my 21061119AG using Tapatalk

Red Bull performed better than Mercedes and helped max win way more points than you think though.

faster also doesn't mean better package for taking points. You need a car that works well. Same with the engine. he had the advantage there throughout the season.

"faster also doesn't mean better package for taking points. You need a car that works well"

So you agree that Red Bull statistically did not have the better car over the year and driver performance and team strategy was the difference?

[PlatinumZealot]

Max won against a faster Mercedes car by performing better and making less mistake.

Sent from my 21061119AG using Tapatalk

Adrian Newey said his car was faster than the Mercedes, so can we stop these low key troll posts now? Why can't you be proud that the team did a good job! Max is just one person in the team, he did his job with what he was given, but the team deserves credit too. This is the team thread after all.

Of course Newey would say that. The stats say different however, unless you are you the believe the word of every designer on the grid.

The absolute hypocrisy of you asking to stop troll posts after what you have just written

So you deny Newey the technical director who is known for his honesty then you deny the poles, wins, fastest laps and corner speeds? We need to stop this now.

Max did an awesome job and deserves the championship. What is wrong if he had the fastest car over he season? Does that diminish his driving ability? I think not. Even the most ardent detractor would have to a fool not to rate Max as a top driver. Look at Michael Schumacher, Aryton Senna, they had the fastest cars and no one can deny their driving greatness.

Let's stop this faster car, slower car foolishness as veiled way to pump up, or diminish drivers.

[jz11]

and how any of this has to do with anything in 2022, two thousand and twenty TWO?!

there is nothing left of that dead horse you're still beating, just a memory, and an asterisk in the annals of history next to 2021 WDC name in some minds, lay it to rest already and look ahead, not back, it is important to know the history, but we all know the facts, you're discussing irrelevant interpretations of said facts in an unrelated thread where people want to read about CURRENT developments around the team

[Dee]

Adrian Newey said his car was faster than the Mercedes, so can we stop these low key troll posts now? Why can't you be proud that the team did a good job! Max is just one person in the team, he did his job with what he was given, but the team deserves credit too. This is the team thread after all.

Of course Newey would say that. The stats say different however, unless you are you the believe the word of every designer on the grid.

The absolute hypocrisy of you asking to stop troll posts after what you have just written

So you deny Newey the technical director who is known for his honesty then you deny the poles, wins, fastest laps and corner speeds? We need to stop this now.

Max did an awesome job and deserves the championship. What is wrong if he had the fastest car over he season? Does that diminish his driving ability? I think not. Even the most ardent detractor would have to a fool not to rate Max as a top driver. Look at Michael Schumacher, Aryton Senna, they had the fastest cars and no one can deny their driving greatness.

Let's stop this faster car, slower car foolishness as veiled way to pump up, or diminish drivers.

There is nothing wrong with winning with the fastest car. There is something wrong with a blanket statement of RB having the fastest car all season when that is entirely wrong.

If you truly want to have a look at how good the RB was, look at Bottas vs Perez in qualy and race results. In both stats, Bottas thrashed Perez

Bottas on the podium 11 times while taking multiple engine penalties and having 4 retirements
Perez on the podium 5 times with two retirements and the team never dropping him from a podium result

with Bottas not well known for his race pace vs Perez who has always been a Sunday driver

And in qualy I think it's something like 17/3 to Bottas finishing higher than Checo over the season

Max vs Lewis may have been very close, but their cars...

I can't see any other driver on the grid getting that performance out of the RB16

[Wouter]

So you deny Newey the technical director who is known for his honesty then you deny the poles, wins, fastest laps and corner speeds? We need to stop this now.

Max did an awesome job and deserves the championship. What is wrong if he had the fastest car over he season? Does that diminish his driving ability? I think not. Even the most ardent detractor would have to a fool not to rate Max as a top driver. Look at Michael Schumacher, Aryton Senna, they had the fastest cars and no one can deny their driving greatness.

Let's stop this faster car, slower car foolishness as veiled way to pump up, or diminish drivers.

.
and how any of this has to do with anything in 2022, two thousand and twenty TWO?!
there is nothing left of that dead horse you're still beating, just a memory.

.
There is nothing wrong with winning with the fastest car. There is something wrong with a blanket statement
of RB having the fastest car all season when that is entirely wrong.
Max vs Lewis may have been very close, but their cars...

[JordanMugen]

So you deny Newey the technical director who is known for his honesty then you deny the poles, wins, fastest laps and corner speeds? We need to stop this now.

The Red Bull - Honda was obviously not the fastest car in the final four races, which is why Verstappen had to both drive and race it so hard, obviously on or over the limit (e.g., hitting the wall in Saudi Arabia). Over the season it was certainly a fast car, and it was a shame that drivers' points were lost through incidents when the RBR-Honda was the fastest car.

I can't see any other driver on the grid getting that performance out of the RB16

I dunno, unfortunately Red Bull signed Perez instead of Alonso, so we will never know.

RBR obviously view Verstappen as very, very, very good hence being willing to offer a long contract at a high salary. Conversely, Verstappen clearly has confidence in the engineering abilities of RBR (and/or RBPT badged as Porsche).

[AeroDynamic]

Max won against a faster Mercedes car by performing better and making less mistake.

Sent from my 21061119AG using Tapatalk

Red Bull performed better than Mercedes and helped max win way more points than you think though.

faster also doesn't mean better package for taking points. You need a car that works well. Same with the engine. he had the advantage there throughout the season.

"faster also doesn't mean better package for taking points. You need a car that works well"

So you agree that Red Bull statistically did not have the better car over the year and driver performance and team strategy was the difference?

No, I don’t have a definitive opinion on which car was faster. But I do agree Red Bull trackside team were better than Mercedes across the season. They performed better on track strategy calls and they were much more effective at getting decisions their way with Masi via Jonathan Wheatley.

I definitively think the Red Bull was the better car in almost all metrics outside of ceiling of speed potential.

I think the Mercedes had bigger potential of pace at certain phases of the season but proved cumbersome to utilise that pace. Mostly because of the change of regulations to the floor hurt the car concept significantly more than Red Bulls. The set up window was bigger and much easier time to work the car for each circuit which proved a pivotal aspect in a season where practice sessions were shorter, and the rival team had a difficult car to unlock performance from. The engine was solid from Honda all season and did not incur penalty in performance or grid for replacement parts. They had one weekend to change engine but the stars aligned and gave them an easy opportunity to bag p2 instead of p7 as an example. The RB18 was less sensitive to conditions when unlocking performance as well.

The races where Mercedes could have maximised points were thrown off by a number of variables going against it. Smaller nuanced forms of luck went to RBR in the second half of the season.

[Dee]

Red Bull performed better than Mercedes and helped max win way more points than you think though.

faster also doesn't mean better package for taking points. You need a car that works well. Same with the engine. he had the advantage there throughout the season.

"faster also doesn't mean better package for taking points. You need a car that works well"

So you agree that Red Bull statistically did not have the better car over the year and driver performance and team strategy was the difference?

No, I don’t have a definitive opinion on which car was faster. But I do agree Red Bull trackside team were better than Mercedes across the season. They performed better on track strategy calls and they were much more effective at getting decisions their way with Masi via Jonathan Wheatley.

I definitively think the Red Bull was the better car in almost all metrics outside of ceiling of speed potential.

I think the Mercedes had bigger potential of pace at certain phases of the season but proved cumbersome to utilise that pace. Mostly because of the change of regulations to the floor hurt the car concept significantly more than Red Bulls. The set up window was bigger and much easier time to work the car for each circuit which proved a pivotal aspect in a season where practice sessions were shorter, and the rival team had a difficult car to unlock performance from. The engine was solid from Honda all season and did not incur penalty in performance or grid for replacement parts. They had one weekend to change engine but the stars aligned and gave them an easy opportunity to bag p2 instead of p7 as an example. The RB18 was less sensitive to conditions when unlocking performance as well.

The races where Mercedes could have maximised points were thrown off by a number of variables going against it. Smaller nuanced forms of luck went to RBR in the second half of the season.

"But I do agree Red Bull trackside team were better than Mercedes across the season"

That is the reason why Max signed with RB until 2028. Multiple times throughout the year RB got the strategy right whereas Mercedes missed the ball

"I definitively think the Red Bull was the better car in almost all metrics outside of ceiling of speed potential"

Why was Perez so off the pace if the RB was the better car? He was new to the team but he is not an unexperienced driver. Max won his first time out with RB in a car he had never driven in before. RB16 was more like Merc in 2021, a more balanced car and not one soley designed for the slow circuits. From SIlverstone there was a marked improvement in Merc performance, weather and drivers/team mistakes hide this. From SIlverstone the RB was more sensitive to the new tyres, the drivers constantly complaining about understeer in qualy when that had not happened previously

"The engine was solid from Honda all season and did not incur penalty in performance or grid for replacement parts"

Honda/RB detuned mid-way through the BahrainGP and only got that origional power back in France, so RB suffered from engine performance in 6 races at the start of the year

[PlatinumZealot]

These are the facts that Newey summed it up perfectly:

Longtime chief designer Newey reckons Red Bull on balance had a quicker car during the course of the 2021 F1 season but agrees that Mercedes managed to claw back a lot towards the end of the year where they were quite handy.

He agrees that regulation changes suited Red Bull more than Mercedes, but they all agreed to it. “It’s difficult to know exactly I mean we all voted for the regulation changes,” said Newey. “Did it suit us more than Mercedes? It seems so certainly earlier in the year, obviously the last few races they’ve come back very strong.

“I think on balance we’ve probably had the quicker car and that’s a tribute to everybody back in the factory really. I think obviously everybody’s. We’re all in the limelight here but what the guys have done back in the factory my colleague engineers the everybody everybody in the whole place the support we feel when we’re out here that they give us is amazing,” summed up Newey.

So let's stop this wild propaganda now please.

We all acknowledge that Max is a top driver. No need to defend his position with the slow car, fast car diatribe and diminish the good job the team has done. A lot of people here are for the team not the drivers so it is insensitive to denigrate the efforts of the team.

I don't have the energy to keep arguing this so this is my last post about this. Say what you want about the RB being slower in 2021. We have the facts and I will congratulate Adrian and his team for the good job they have done.

[ringo]

Vettel has a better record than Max in that regard.

I don't see how, Vettel had a car capable of winning regularly seven times ('09,10,11,12,13,17,18) and has four titles to show for it, so less than the 100% rate of Verstappen.

Vettel took four wins in '09, but Webber took two other wins in the RBR, so in theory Vettel could have matched the six wins that driver's title winner Button scored and negated or overhauled Button's 9pt WDC margin.

IIRC Vettel had unnecessary crashes in Australia and Malaysia, so that too (plus Webber outperforming Vettel in some races), could have cost RBR the WDC despite having a regular race winning car.

You misunderstand. Vettel's first shot at winning a wdc was in 2010.
In 2009 Brawn was dominant. Vettel would not have won even if Webber didnt get wins.
Brawn would have simply adjusted to the threat.
Maybe my post was edited as well but Max's wdc is clearly not cut and dry. And i wont go into details because we all know what had to happen for him to win.

Under normal circumstances Vettel got more from his championship winning car at the first go. Vettel's 2010 wdc was undisputed.
And its not a this driver is better than that discussion. Max may well be more talented, but Vettel must get respect where it is due.
He did win more convincingly than Max and he overcame a deficit of Webber and Alonso to be Champion.
Max on the otherhand got dominated in the last 4 races.
Let's call a spade spade.