2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[wogx]

We all saw what happened later in the race where George struggled to pass a HAAS and just made it when the HAAS didn't even have the DRS open, while Lewis was stuck in a DRS train all the time.

Did you watched the same race? Russell passed him twice, both times without DRS. The succesful move was made in the braking zone before Variante Alta - IIRC that was the only manouver there.

1:30

[Tvetovnato]

We all saw what happened later in the race where George struggled to pass a HAAS and just made it when the HAAS didn't even have the DRS open, while Lewis was stuck in a DRS train all the time.

Did you watched the same race? Russell passed him twice, both times without DRS. The succesful move was made in the braking zone before Variante Alta - IIRC that was the only manouver there.

1:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL0yww9nk9o

Did I say he didn’t? Mag was still not pulled by any other car down the straight, which naturally makes it easier to pass for Russell than for Hamilton who is trying to slipstream past another car who tries to slipstream the car in front. Quite evident that Mags tyres not in the best shape either, as Bottas later passed him in an unusual place too.

[Spoutnik]

I think we should not overeact... Lewis should've finished ahead of Russell in Australia despite having an heavier car with sensor, he spent the entire race behind a DRS train and Merc + Ocon destroy his pit stop...
At some point last year he had some very lows... like after Austria or Mexico when he/we all thought it was over.
On the other hand, it's good that Russell is doing a mega job and he'll probably help understanding the car.
Lewis did his best to overcome Abu Dhabi's farce, but when the car is not good after that it's difficult to accept, he's only human, even if he's paid for that.

On the more technical side of things, I think it's a very long season. Merc will have 2 weeks + 2 weeks (after Miami) to bring solutions. Every team has done a big step forward (apart Alpine/Williams maybe) : see AM and McLaren. And afaik they don't have better team or better drivers for that.
This car has a good potential in slow corner atm, I would also add it's not wearing the tyres contrary to some teams.
Futhermore, Merc can unleash the engine when the porpoising will be solve.

[ringo]

We all saw what happened later in the race where George struggled to pass a HAAS and just made it when the HAAS didn't even have the DRS open, while Lewis was stuck in a DRS train all the time.

Did you watched the same race? Russell passed him twice, both times without DRS. The succesful move was made in the braking zone before Variante Alta - IIRC that was the only manouver there.

1:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL0yww9nk9o

Russel was mutch faster than Kevin. So much so he was in his gearbox most of the time.
Kmag simply didnt have any tyres.

[ringo]

I think we should not overeact... Lewis should've finished ahead of Russell in Australia despite having an heavier car with sensor, he spent the entire race behind a DRS train and Merc + Ocon destroy his pit stop...
At some point last year he had some very lows... like after Austria or Mexico when he/we all thought it was over.
On the other hand, it's good that Russell is doing a mega job and he'll probably help understanding the car.
Lewis did his best to overcome Abu Dhabi's farce, but when the car is not good after that it's difficult to accept, he's only human, even if he's paid for that.

On the more technical side of things, I think it's a very long season. Merc will have 2 weeks + 2 weeks (after Miami) to bring solutions. Every team has done a big step forward (apart Alpine/Williams maybe) : see AM and McLaren. And afaik they don't have better team or better drivers for that.
This car has a good potential in slow corner atm, I would also add it's not wearing the tyres contrary to some teams.
Futhermore, Merc can unleash the engine when the porpoising will be solve.

I think Aston Martin's performance bodes well for mercedes. The car is in a much better place with its upgrades. and it goes to show that the porpoising issues and setup issues can be fixed.
What Mercedes want to do is to have their cake and eat it. They could find a solution similar to Aston or Mclaren but they want to find the solution that allows the car to scrape on the ground while managing the porpoising. The others found a midway solution where their cars are simply not as low.
The redbull now id the best car on the track and marvelously have no bouncing while able to have as much downforce to give them good tyre wear and top speed.

[PlatinumZealot]

The difference is that there is no power superiority like it was in Brazil last year. Now we see even more of what rocket that car/engine was.

Siedl and Toto confirmed the engine was the same as the others. It clearly was because in Quatar, Jedddah and Abu Dhabi the Mercedes was on par with Honda again. It was Hamilton's setup that was a calculated risk that worked.

Doesn't make sense to perpetuate rumours of this "rocket engine" anymore. Too much sensible here people to fall for that one.

They would be stupid to run an engine that only has to last 2 races in the same configuration as the engine that needs to last 7. The power difference was there, and quite obviously.

The same engine was used again afterward, why weren't the rockets turned on when it mattered most? See how crazy you sound? Anyway, evidence is already there, and I trust Toto, Shovlin and also Seidl who is an independent third party that confirmed that there was no special rocket engine.

[ringo]

An analysis was done on the mini sectors and speeds. There was no rocket engine.
This was confirmed by independent watchers and the team.
Hamilton simply found a good setup and was using a certain racing line coming up to the last corner.

[zibby43]

I would argue that McLaren is a good example of how you can turn things around this season… Everyone was calling the car a dog, that the concept was flawed because it didn’t follow Ferrari or RBR, for heads to roll (from Brown to Key) and they are showing enough pace to be at the front of the midfield with no real upgrades to talk about.

Mercedes issue is due to the porpoising, which some think is more related to a suspension problem than generated by the aero… If it is mechanical, then the concept may very well be the right one… They just can’t unlock the potential until they fix the other issues… So no, changing concepts this early in the season wouldn’t be helpful and is really early for it… They need to understand why it’s happening so they can fix it and they seem to be struggling to find those answers.

McLaren’s not challenging for the title though. They improved enough to snag a 3rd on merit. Which is a place where Merc has been this year, and has the potential to get back to.

That’s the lens I’m looking at this through - the championships. Sure, Merc can improve and maybe challenge for the odd race win later in the season on a weekend where Ferrari/RBR stumble.

Time to let go of the championship talk. The team has.

That was one of my main points. On the “concept” - they shouldn’t change just for the sake of changing.

But they can’t afford to stick with it because they’re enamored by the “theoretical” performance on paper, either. Hopefully that better summarizes my other point.

I agree that the Championship will be a very tall order for Mercedes this season… Thanks for elaborating!

Probably I should have explained mine better also… Even though I agree that the WCC may be a very hard to achieve target for Mercedes, it doesn’t mean that their concept is necessarily wrong… Yes, it is not performing as expected right now, but without knowing which is the exact cause for the lack of performance, it will be very risky and probably mistaken to go hunt for a different concept, without knowing what isn’t working or correlating on this car, it could very well happen with a different concept also.

At this point, the team (and most definitely the fans) don’t know if the concept is the right or the wrong one, is it an aero or a mechanical problem… Going for a different concept to fix what exactly? If they don’t know what is causing the extreme porpoising, how do they design a new concept that doesn’t carry over this characteristic?

An argument could be made to go an copy either Ferrari’s or Red Bull’s concept, but that would mean most probably been behind next season too, because while they are using time to copy / understand their rivals concept, their rivals are refining, improving and adding performance to those concepts (like the situation with the “pink mercedes”, Racing Point was capable of copying Mercedes concept, but they were never going to beat them with it).

What you’re saying is very measured . . . and normally I’d be on the same page.

However, Lewis was today making comments referencing how “wrong” they’ve gotten it this year. Now, that’s a very general comment. Is it concept-specific? I don’t know. But virtually every team on the grid has been able to get on top of their problems to an extent, whereas Merc are still going backward in qualifying.

They’re in a bad spot. Every day they become more and more invested in hoping their huge floor surface area approach can work in this era. I’m less hung up on the side pod shape. I’m more concerned with the packaging choices and the exposed floor that seems to be at least part of the porpoising problem.

Meanwhile, I wouldn’t be surprised to see RBR overhaul Ferrari at some point. Their rate of development is extraordinary. Their correlation has improved dramatically the past 2 seasons.

[Hammerfist]

All this ‘that ship has sailed’ is much too premature.

Mercedes now knows how Ferrari’s and Red Bull’s floors look. They have a lot of engine data. And they have two more weeks to develop. They have good chances to make a big step till Miami GP.

Even Hamilton’s gap to Leclerc is just 58 points. And we’ve seen Charles is already struggling.

There are another 491 points to be awarded this season.

Brackley are best in suspension and in-season development. Brixworth built the Brazil 2021 rocket engine.

Maybe it’s just 2 or 3 puzzle piece to make the W13 the dominant car we expected.

Maybe Petronas find’s something for the E10 fuel.

We stilll don’t know if Russel and Hamilton will be WDC candidates. Still too early to say.

Do you think that now Mercedes knows how RedBull's and Ferrari's floors look they'll copy them, put it on the car in 2 weeks and win the race? F1 does not work like that, not even close.

I've not seen a struggling Charles. I don't know what you mean.

The Brazil 2021 rocket engine basically was the same as the previous ones, just mapped and used at full beans for the whole races since the aim was to use it in three or so races only.

Petronas can't find something for the E10 fuel because fuel is homologated too - no more development.

I for myself know that Russel and Hamilton won't be WDC candidates this year and it definitely is not too early to say at this point. I also don't think that it's a big deal or a shame to talk about it or accept it. We'll see how they will do next season and the seasons after, but the current season is not their's. It is how it is.

How do you know this? Do you have a source? I would think the engine freeze applies to the engine itself, as in the hardware. I have not heard of a fuel and lubricant freeze.

[LM10]

All this ‘that ship has sailed’ is much too premature.

Mercedes now knows how Ferrari’s and Red Bull’s floors look. They have a lot of engine data. And they have two more weeks to develop. They have good chances to make a big step till Miami GP.

Even Hamilton’s gap to Leclerc is just 58 points. And we’ve seen Charles is already struggling.

There are another 491 points to be awarded this season.

Brackley are best in suspension and in-season development. Brixworth built the Brazil 2021 rocket engine.

Maybe it’s just 2 or 3 puzzle piece to make the W13 the dominant car we expected.

Maybe Petronas find’s something for the E10 fuel.

We stilll don’t know if Russel and Hamilton will be WDC candidates. Still too early to say.

Do you think that now Mercedes knows how RedBull's and Ferrari's floors look they'll copy them, put it on the car in 2 weeks and win the race? F1 does not work like that, not even close.

I've not seen a struggling Charles. I don't know what you mean.

The Brazil 2021 rocket engine basically was the same as the previous ones, just mapped and used at full beans for the whole races since the aim was to use it in three or so races only.

Petronas can't find something for the E10 fuel because fuel is homologated too - no more development.

I for myself know that Russel and Hamilton won't be WDC candidates this year and it definitely is not too early to say at this point. I also don't think that it's a big deal or a shame to talk about it or accept it. We'll see how they will do next season and the seasons after, but the current season is not their's. It is how it is.

How do you know this? Do you have a source? I would think the engine freeze applies to the engine itself, as in the hardware. I have not heard of a fuel and lubricant freeze.

There are two homologation deadlines. The first was 1st March 2022, by which time the manufacturers had to freeze the ICE (the V6 engine), the turbo, the MGU-H (motor generator unit – heat), the exhaust system, the fuel specification, and the engine oil specification.

However, they still have some leeway to work on other power unit elements within this season as there is a second deadline of 1st September 2022 for a specification upgrade to the control electronics, the energy store (battery) and the MGU-K (motor generator unit – kinetic).

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1s- ... 82969/amp/

[dialtone]

How do you know this? Do you have a source? I would think the engine freeze applies to the engine itself, as in the hardware. I have not heard of a fuel and lubricant freeze.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... -02-19.pdf

5.4 A change of fuel and oil supplier will be accepted, provided such change is intended for
commercial and not for performance reasons.

If you check row 37 in the Appendix 3 table you'll see that Fuel and Oil are included in what is specified in Appendix 4 which, after all, is titled "APPENDIX 4: 2022-2025 POWER UNIT, FUEL AND ENGINE OIL
HOMOLOGATION".

So yeah, unless Merc plans to switch away from Petronas, they are stuck with what they have now.

[CaribouBread]

How do you know this? Do you have a source? I would think the engine freeze applies to the engine itself, as in the hardware. I have not heard of a fuel and lubricant freeze.

Page 162 of 2022 Technical Regulations (18th Feb, Issue 9)

https://imgur.com/a/dUe0DhP
absolutely struggling to get this image to work

[proteus]

Siedl and Toto confirmed the engine was the same as the others. It clearly was because in Quatar, Jedddah and Abu Dhabi the Mercedes was on par with Honda again. It was Hamilton's setup that was a calculated risk that worked.

Doesn't make sense to perpetuate rumours of this "rocket engine" anymore. Too much sensible here people to fall for that one.

They would be stupid to run an engine that only has to last 2 races in the same configuration as the engine that needs to last 7. The power difference was there, and quite obviously.

The same engine was used again afterward, why weren't the rockets turned on when it mattered most? See how crazy you sound? Anyway, evidence is already there, and I trust Toto, Shovlin and also Seidl who is an independent third party that confirmed that there was no special rocket engine.

Degradation played its part and he still had plenty of horsepower in those last races. Ask yourself why Bottas had two engine swaps before Lewis had his streak of brilliance.

[JordanMugen]

Russell driving like an absolute animal. Race after race getting better and better.

Russell is all positive and hungrier!

Indeed, Russell is indeed an ace as many expected (myself included) and should have been promoted to Mercedes in 2020 or 2021. It was a total misstep to not arrange such a deal (Williams contract buyout and replace out-of-contract Bottas) and get the best possible drivers ASAP IMO.

Bottas has struggled to amass the number of wins in his career, that Button or Rosberg amassed in one season. Why Mercedes persist with Bottas remains a mystery when the likes of Ricciardo, Alonso were available for 2019 and now Russell too...

You always have to get the best two drivers you can find. Always.

Solid rear gunner for Lewis. I see no reason to change [Bottas] than to bring more exitement to the team if that is what Toto wants and I doubt it.

Russell absolutely should have had the opportunity to drive the Mercedes and go for the 2021 & 2021 WDCs.

As PlatinumZealot said Russell is a positive and hungry driver, who therefore would mostly likely have put together an excellent WDC challenge.

Leclerc and Gasly got the promotions ASAP, it is ridiculous that Russell did not. Was it ever truly likely that Russell would be as disastrous as Gasly at Red Bull? Not really, no IMO. Baffling, and probably has cost Russell so many potential wins during the 2020 & 2021 seasons as well as costing Mercedes themselves many WCC points.

Had Hamilton been severely beaten in pure pace, it would be one thing. But so far that’s nowhere near the case.

Exactly, they are quite even. The argument against promoting Russell early was that Russell would be way off the pace like Gasly compared to Verstappen, which just seems totally unfounded IMO. It is clear that Russell should have been promoted earlier and that Russell is most likely an improvement compared to Bottas - every race team should always strive to hire the two fastest drivers available!

[cheeRS]

All this ‘that ship has sailed’ is much too premature.

Mercedes now knows how Ferrari’s and Red Bull’s floors look. They have a lot of engine data. And they have two more weeks to develop. They have good chances to make a big step till Miami GP.

Even Hamilton’s gap to Leclerc is just 58 points. And we’ve seen Charles is already struggling.

There are another 491 points to be awarded this season.

Brackley are best in suspension and in-season development. Brixworth built the Brazil 2021 rocket engine.

Maybe it’s just 2 or 3 puzzle piece to make the W13 the dominant car we expected.

Maybe Petronas find’s something for the E10 fuel.

We stilll don’t know if Russel and Hamilton will be WDC candidates. Still too early to say.

Do you think that now Mercedes knows how RedBull's and Ferrari's floors look they'll copy them, put it on the car in 2 weeks and win the race? F1 does not work like that, not even close.

I've not seen a struggling Charles. I don't know what you mean.

The Brazil 2021 rocket engine basically was the same as the previous ones, just mapped and used at full beans for the whole races since the aim was to use it in three or so races only.

Petronas can't find something for the E10 fuel because fuel is homologated too - no more development.

I for myself know that Russel and Hamilton won't be WDC candidates this year and it definitely is not too early to say at this point. I also don't think that it's a big deal or a shame to talk about it or accept it. We'll see how they will do next season and the seasons after, but the current season is not their's. It is how it is.

You must be extremely new to Formula 1. Or, perhaps, just trolling?

You don't "know" anything, for yourself or for anybody else. That probably sounds harsh, but your statements are so far out of what is reasonable.

Russel was second in the standings after 3 races, aka, WDC candidate. Yeah, it was due to, in part, bad luck from Red Bull, but the point stands. The people in F1 - drivers, engineers, directors - aren't people that just give up and see no hope. They grind through and figure it out. They don't just say "let's just see how we do next season I guess."

If you want to be objective, then everyone is a candidate for the WDC if they can mathematically still win the WDC.