2025 Mexican Grand Prix - Autódromo Hermanos Rodríguez, Oct 24 - 26

[ismail1991]

Yes you can, according to the new stewarding rules, if you have the inside of the corner (front axle ahead of the mirrors of the defending car). The same thing Hamilton did, in this very race, in T2 (after he was pushed out by verstappen in T1) where he pushed verstappen out, because he had his nose in ahead at the apex of the T2 lefthander. It's the same thing Lando did in T1 in Monza, nose ahead on the inside.

Kindly make yourselves aware of the rules, and contribute in a discussion with points that carry merit, instead of treating these threads like facebook wall / twitter status, for 'venting'.

I am sure the same thing will take place against Max soon. You guys will have a totally different point of view then. Just like the time when Russell and Max had their issue

What did you mean by 'you guys' ? This is not fan-wars of teenagers on facebook. If you feel hurt because your favourite driver lost out in battle or the driver you hate won in a battle and the stewards responded in a way that didn't comply with your emotional reaction to an incident, keep it to yourself, because I can't see anything other than emotion in your posts regarding this topic so far.

It is not emotion, it is unjust. It is double standards. Some drivers get away with it, some drivers are penalized heavily. I agree with everything George Russell said after the race

[SiLo]

They could easily adjust the run off areas to cut a lot of this out entirely.

[DChemTech]

I am sure the same thing will take place against Max soon. You guys will have a totally different point of view then. Just like the time when Russell and Max had their issue

What did you mean by 'you guys' ? This is not fan-wars of teenagers on facebook. If you feel hurt because your favourite driver lost out in battle or the driver you hate won in a battle and the stewards responded in a way that didn't comply with your emotional reaction to an incident, keep it to yourself, because I can't see anything other than emotion in your posts regarding this topic so far.

It is not emotion, it is unjust. It is double standards. Some drivers get away with it, some drivers are penalized heavily. I agree with everything George Russell said after the race

Sorry but what? George's complaints were bollocks. He lost the place well before any T1 incident. Him complaining about Max not handing back the place was complete rubbish - Max did hand back the places he was required to, namely to the Ferrari's. The only one that did not act properly there was Leclerc, who should have yielded to Hamilton.

[Francis Bacon]

No That’s what Alonso said like 13 years ago trying to give Rosberg a penalty. But that’s not what the rules state. This is what I mean when I say what is the point of judging if you don’t know the rules? It just becomes a reflection of your feelings instead of an analysis of the facts. As soon as Max was fully alongside on the apex it became his corner and he is no longer required to give space on the exit, as per the drivers’ wishes, and just like the stewards describe in the article.

I dont agree with your judgement and your explanations. For me, Max bullied into turn1 pushed hamilton off track. What can Hamilton do to avoid it, nothing. Mayhen caused by Max. He is protected by FIA, and they even caused Hamilton for an incident Max caused

Tough luck because those are the rules and the stewards confirmed it verbatim. Hamilton should have yielded earlier and not turned in.

The stewards, humans, all of them, were wrong in their ruling.

The rules state that if the overtaking car is substantially alongside, with their front axle at least even with the other car's mirror, it's clean and the other driver must leave space. That's clear. That part is fine, and Lewis left space.

What they steward missed is the second part of the rule, where the overtaking driver must be in control of their car and able to overtake safely. . Max broke both of these rules.

He (with nothing to lose) dive-bombed Lewis, turned out on-exit before completing the overtake (Lewis was still ahead at the apex, and side-by-side on exit). At this point, Max was required to leave space for Lewis. Instead Max slid into Lewis and collided with his wheels and ran him off the track before completing the overtake. Definitionally, this means Max was not ahead, not in control, and the attempt was not safe and therefore illegal.

Next, at T2 Lewis left space for Max on the outside, and he would have had no trouble making the corner. Instead of dropping back, Max chose to leave the track and cut the corner. Then he used the pavement on the last bit of the escape road to get a good launch to try and sprint ahead. This is not a mistake, it's purposely leaving the track to gain an advantage.

This is the behavior of skilled and ruthless driver chasing the WDC with nothing to lose, knowingly rolling the dice.

It was illegal, but the stewards dropped the ball. Full stop.

[ismail1991]

I dont agree with your judgement and your explanations. For me, Max bullied into turn1 pushed hamilton off track. What can Hamilton do to avoid it, nothing. Mayhen caused by Max. He is protected by FIA, and they even caused Hamilton for an incident Max caused

Tough luck because those are the rules and the stewards confirmed it verbatim. Hamilton should have yielded earlier and not turned in.

. The stewards, humans, all of them, were wrong in their ruling.

The rules state that if the overtaking car is substantially alongside, with their front axel at least even with the other car's mirror, it's clean and the other driver must leave space. That's clear. That part is fine, and Lewis left space.

What they steward missed is the second part of the rule, where the overtaking driver must be in control of their car and able to overtake safely. . Max broke both of these rules.

He (with nothing to lose) dive-bombed Lewis, turned out on-exit before completing the overtake (Lewis was still ahead at the apex, and side-by-side on exit). At this point, MAx was required to leave space for Lewis. Instead Max slid into Lewis and collided with his wheels and ran him off the track. Definitionally, this means Max was not ahead, not in control, and the attempt was not safe and therefore illegal.

Next, at T2 Lewis left space for Max, and he would have had no trouble making the corner. Instead of dropping back, Max chose to leave the track and cut the corner. He then used the pavement on the last bit of the escape road to get a good launch to try and sprint ahead.

This is the behavior of skilled and ruthless driver chasing the WDC with nothing to lose, knowingly rolling the dice.

It was illegal, but the stewards dropped the ball. Full stop.

Thank you, you explained much better than me.

[CMSMJ1]

And....let's just settle down

A few notes from the previous couple of pages.

Stop dragging the emaciated remains of AD21 into the light - it is dead. Leave it.

Be nice eh? Some pretty rude attitudes here - this is the internet - you cannot always be right.

[organic]

Yeah we should all be nice. But it's frustrating to discuss incidents with people who are judging things by outdated principles.

The current racing rules suck and often feel unfair but we have to go by them

[Badger]

The stewards, humans, all of them, were wrong in their ruling.

The rules state that if the overtaking car is substantially alongside, with their front axel at least even with the other car's mirror, it's clean and the other driver must leave space. That's clear. That part is fine, and Lewis left space.

What they steward missed is the second part of the rule, where the overtaking driver must be in control of their car and able to overtake safely. . Max broke both of these rules.

He (with nothing to lose) dive-bombed Lewis, turned out on-exit before completing the overtake (Lewis was still ahead at the apex, and side-by-side on exit). At this point, MAx was required to leave space for Lewis. Instead Max slid into Lewis and collided with his wheels and ran him off the track. Definitionally, this means Max was not ahead, not in control, and the attempt was not safe and therefore illegal.

Next, at T2 Lewis left space for Max, and he would have had no trouble making the corner. Instead of dropping back, Max chose to leave the track and cut the corner. He then used the pavement on the last bit of the escape road to get a good launch to try and sprint ahead.

This is the behavior of skilled and ruthless driver chasing the WDC with nothing to lose, knowingly rolling the dice.

It was illegal, but the stewards dropped the ball. Full stop.

Max was in control of his car and kept it tight to the apex where he was side by side and then stayed within track limits on the exit. In this instance Lewis should have yielded once he lost the apex because he wasn’t entitled to the corner anymore, per the rules. This is why it was in fact car 44 that was investigated for “causing a collision” at turn 1, never car 1. It was ultimately dismissed as a racing incident because no damage occurred, but Max was never under any threat of penalty (Lewis was).

We’ve been over this many times and seen so many examples of this during the year. There’s little point arguing with people who just invent their own rules and standards and then claim that everyone else including the stewards have it wrong. This is fiction masquerading as debate.

[SiLo]

The stewards, humans, all of them, were wrong in their ruling.

The rules state that if the overtaking car is substantially alongside, with their front axel at least even with the other car's mirror, it's clean and the other driver must leave space. That's clear. That part is fine, and Lewis left space.

What they steward missed is the second part of the rule, where the overtaking driver must be in control of their car and able to overtake safely. . Max broke both of these rules.

He (with nothing to lose) dive-bombed Lewis, turned out on-exit before completing the overtake (Lewis was still ahead at the apex, and side-by-side on exit). At this point, MAx was required to leave space for Lewis. Instead Max slid into Lewis and collided with his wheels and ran him off the track. Definitionally, this means Max was not ahead, not in control, and the attempt was not safe and therefore illegal.

Next, at T2 Lewis left space for Max, and he would have had no trouble making the corner. Instead of dropping back, Max chose to leave the track and cut the corner. He then used the pavement on the last bit of the escape road to get a good launch to try and sprint ahead.

This is the behavior of skilled and ruthless driver chasing the WDC with nothing to lose, knowingly rolling the dice.

It was illegal, but the stewards dropped the ball. Full stop.

Max was in control of his car and kept it tight to the apex where he was side by side and then stayed within track limits on the exit. In this instance Lewis should have yielded once he lost the apex because he wasn’t entitled to the corner anymore, per the rules. This is why it was in fact car 44 that was investigated for “causing a collision” at turn 1, never car 1. It was ultimately dismissed as a racing incident because no damage occurred, but Max was never under any threat of penalty (Lewis was).

We’ve been over this many times and seen so many examples of this during the year. There’s little point arguing with people who just invent their own rules and standards and then claim that everyone else including the stewards have it wrong. This is fiction masquerading as debate.

We need to be tackling the shite rules that cause these kind of incidents. We should absolutely be expecting better from the drivers.

[Badger]

The stewards, humans, all of them, were wrong in their ruling.

The rules state that if the overtaking car is substantially alongside, with their front axel at least even with the other car's mirror, it's clean and the other driver must leave space. That's clear. That part is fine, and Lewis left space.

What they steward missed is the second part of the rule, where the overtaking driver must be in control of their car and able to overtake safely. . Max broke both of these rules.

He (with nothing to lose) dive-bombed Lewis, turned out on-exit before completing the overtake (Lewis was still ahead at the apex, and side-by-side on exit). At this point, MAx was required to leave space for Lewis. Instead Max slid into Lewis and collided with his wheels and ran him off the track. Definitionally, this means Max was not ahead, not in control, and the attempt was not safe and therefore illegal.

Next, at T2 Lewis left space for Max, and he would have had no trouble making the corner. Instead of dropping back, Max chose to leave the track and cut the corner. He then used the pavement on the last bit of the escape road to get a good launch to try and sprint ahead.

This is the behavior of skilled and ruthless driver chasing the WDC with nothing to lose, knowingly rolling the dice.

It was illegal, but the stewards dropped the ball. Full stop.

Max was in control of his car and kept it tight to the apex where he was side by side and then stayed within track limits on the exit. In this instance Lewis should have yielded once he lost the apex because he wasn’t entitled to the corner anymore, per the rules. This is why it was in fact car 44 that was investigated for “causing a collision” at turn 1, never car 1. It was ultimately dismissed as a racing incident because no damage occurred, but Max was never under any threat of penalty (Lewis was).

We’ve been over this many times and seen so many examples of this during the year. There’s little point arguing with people who just invent their own rules and standards and then claim that everyone else including the stewards have it wrong. This is fiction masquerading as debate.

We need to be tackling the shite rules that cause these kind of incidents. We should absolutely be expecting better from the drivers.

Now that is an opinion I can respect because it actually accepts reality even if it disagrees with the rule.

That being said, this rule was driver led, so they have no one else to blame. Also consider the difficulty in overtaking with these modern cars, giving the defender too many “rights” could be detrimental to the show. At the end of the day they all know that staying to the inside is the key to defending, so if you gamble on keeping your normal line when someone is close, you run the risk of being dived.

[Ben1980]

What did you mean by 'you guys' ? This is not fan-wars of teenagers on facebook. If you feel hurt because your favourite driver lost out in battle or the driver you hate won in a battle and the stewards responded in a way that didn't comply with your emotional reaction to an incident, keep it to yourself, because I can't see anything other than emotion in your posts regarding this topic so far.

It is not emotion, it is unjust. It is double standards. Some drivers get away with it, some drivers are penalized heavily. I agree with everything George Russell said after the race

Sorry but what? George's complaints were bollocks. He lost the place well before any T1 incident. Him complaining about Max not handing back the place was complete rubbish - Max did hand back the places he was required to, namely to the Ferrari's. The only one that did not act properly there was Leclerc, who should have yielded to Hamilton.

I think, the issue is, if Max had attempted to actually make the corner, by slowing down etc he would have lost more than one place.

He played the game and knew what he could and couldn't do. But, he doesnt do the move if he cant just bomb around the grass, with little risk.

[Rikhart]

Most of the last pages can be summed up by "this driver is just too good, miles better than what I think is the best, and I can't cope with this, he must be doing something illegal".

[Henk_v]

People who hold the opinion Max did something wrong in T1 should look at the entire start (not only an X clip) and the onboard.
Max was pushed off track and bottomed out on the kerb. He did brake to make the corner, but locked the wheels due to bottoming out. Max was a passenger in the situation.
If you look at the onboard, he gave it his all to not crash and missed the wall by 10 cm briefly before rejoining. He could not have done anything different, he just avoided crashing till that point. When he rejoined he imediately took responsibility and gave back all positions gained unfairly. He did not play games, he did not give the positions back in a tactical spot to gain advantage.
Before being pushed on the kerb, he was a car's length in front of Russell and gaining. Even if Verstappen could have braked for a switchback he would have been in front of Russel.

Max doesn't make mistakes like this. He did what he did knowing he could, "oops," not make the corner, and cut across. He has nothing to lose.

I will not entertain discussions on fact-free opinons. This is a technical forum. We can discuss what happened and how we view it. You have clearly not watched the onboard. It's clear as day he did not want to go off. He got pushed off with nobody to blame. Race incident. He did not gain anything and solved it as agreed. Proper driving.

As for the T3 incident. Max knows the rules and uses them. Both drivers were agressive, but Max was smart enough to keep to the rules (however unfair they may seem).

The stewards were smart. Had they penalised for not using the right path, it would have been fought and that would have been a mess. They decided to penalise for another rule that was also breached and can not (reasonably) be contested.

Max did cross lines in the past, but here he kept it ckean and within the rules. He full well knows a penalty can cost him the championship.

[timorous]

I keep seeing talk of the new rules. They are not rules but guidelines. It says this at the top of the document.

These are GUIDELINES and NOT REGULATIONS

The rules are still in Appendix L chapter 4 and section 2B clearly states moves that force another car off track are not allowed.

The purpose of the guidelines is to determine who is at fault in the case of contact at the apex. The number of arguments between he cut across me and I had won that corner were quite frequent so the guidelines give reference points for when it is cutting across Vs when the attacker has earned space.

They also cover situations at the exit to determine if the attacking outside driver has earned space or if the inside driver can take the usual racing line.

Nowhere in the preamble or in section A that cover overtakes on the inside does it state that if the overtaking car has priority they can force the defending driver off track, that is just made up nonsense.

[DChemTech]

It is not emotion, it is unjust. It is double standards. Some drivers get away with it, some drivers are penalized heavily. I agree with everything George Russell said after the race

Sorry but what? George's complaints were bollocks. He lost the place well before any T1 incident. Him complaining about Max not handing back the place was complete rubbish - Max did hand back the places he was required to, namely to the Ferrari's. The only one that did not act properly there was Leclerc, who should have yielded to Hamilton.

I think, the issue is, if Max had attempted to actually make the corner, by slowing down etc he would have lost more than one place.

He played the game and knew what he could and couldn't do. But, he doesnt do the move if he cant just bomb around the grass, with little risk.

Maybe, but that seems a loooot of hopium to me. Looking a the top down footage for T1, the four lead cars are well ahead of the 2 Mercedes. If all cars were a bit more inward (plenty of room) with Max not braking and bottoming on the curb, he'd easily have stuck to 3th or worst case 4th position. Had Max braked earlier to slide back of the Ferraris, he'd have plenty of room to fall back, take T1 well in front of the Mercedes, and take the inside line in T2.
I don't see any scenario where Russell would claim the position that's not banking on the absurd.