Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[GhostF1]

I think to be successful in today's F1 the engine manufacturer has to have a bigger say in the design of the car. There's not much you can do if you're way down on power and there is a large power deficit to other teams/engines regardless of how good the aero department is...

The aero departments of each team are very good and are now equal with spending/budget cost cap and limiting time/hours spent with CFD, wind tunnel, testing bans, etc.

It use to be different 30 years ago during the V10 era where the power of each engine was a little closer and aero mattered more. Back then, in the early 2000's BMW's slight power advantage could not over come the very conservative aero philosophy of the Williams car. McLaren, Ferrari and Renault/Benetton had a more aggressive aero/suspension approach.

Today, the aero department needs to design their car around the engine and not dictate to the engine manufacturer the size of the engine. The McLaren "size zero" disaster with Honda is a great example.

The Red Bull / Toro Rosso relationship with Honda was great, they let Honda build the engine and built the chassis/aero around it, it worked.

With Aston Martin, I'm sensing a little "McLaren" authoritarian dictating to Honda but, I could be completely wrong about that. There is an obvious power deficit Honda has for the first part of 2026.

I think all the Mercedes' supplied teams all build their cars around the Mercedes engine including the factory Petronas Mercedes team. Every Mercedes supplied team has good speed numbers, sort of like a plug-in play.

I think it's 100% different. In 2015 they were coming in fresh. They got many things wrong in the block itself. The turbo sizing and placement they got wrong, then the token system locked them into their original bad design and made it really hard for them to correct. This year's block is pretty much the same as the one they've been perfecting for the last 8 years. Even if the people aren't there they can see the block with their eyes. What's changed it No MGU-H, bigger MGU-K, the position the MGU-K connects to the crankshaft is different position, the fuel and CR. The Fuel and CR will like effect the heads and pistons design (combustion). So the block the connecting rods are probably the same. The crank has changed to handle more power from the MGU-K and the position it connects to it. Even the Turbo has more limitations on it's placement (less chance to get it wrong).

I would guess that even if Honda combustion isn't as good as everyone else. Lets say down 2% in power. That can be made up by chassis, the car could be competitive.

Good points but, was that Honda's fault or McLaren's fault ? I think McLaren wanted a "Size zero" engine and gave Honda the dimensions they expected and wanted and Honda built a smaller lighter engine with a smaller turbo at McLaren's request.

Once Honda went to Toro Rosso / Red Bull things took off pretty quickly where they were allowed to develop the engine more on their own terms.

What are your opinions on the MGU-H / K ? Do you think the elimination of the MGU-H and a bigger MGU-K is a step forward or backwards for efficiency for hybrid technology ?

The Mclaren v Honda debate, to me (my 2 cents), it really was both parties at fault. McLaren pushed Honda to enter a year earlier than Honda would have preferred, and also with some "hopeful" requests on the engine, but Honda also agreed, to both, with zero experience on these engines.
Also, the design they were pursuing on the first engine was quickly found to be completely off target once they hit the track in the car. So if they joined in 2016, would they have been better off? I'm not sure. No data points to know. It took a disaster to force them into the 2017 design which only then did that second disaster really wake Honda up entirely to using their full company capabilities, and money and decide to properly structure their outfit. Red Bull being open to theme experimenting and basically using Toro Rosso as a moving test bench in 2018 greatly accelerated their potential.
I would say it was the RA621 in 2021 where they made a huge jump architecturally to become front runners. And without the hardships, whether they would have gotten there? Hard to say, probably yes, but timeframe wise? Who knows.

[Honda Porsche fan]

Teams should try to replicate what Mercedes is doing and how they operate, how their corporate structure is setup. From 2021 to 2025 they did not win the title but, were still consistent top 3 team. They still won multiple races in 2025.

[diffuser]

Good points but, was that Honda's fault or McLaren's fault ? I think McLaren wanted a "Size zero" engine and gave Honda the dimensions they expected and wanted and Honda built a smaller lighter engine with a smaller turbo at McLaren's request.

Once Honda went to Toro Rosso / Red Bull things took off pretty quickly where they were allowed to develop the engine more on their own terms.

What are your opinions on the MGU-H / K ? Do you think the elimination of the MGU-H and a bigger MGU-K is a step forward or backwards for efficiency for hybrid technology ?

If you don't know what happened then don't make shiit up. You guys don't read. How many times do I have to repeat that the FIA changed the regs for 2017. That allowed Honda to completely redesign the PU from scratch while they were still at McLaren. BEFORE that the regs PREVENTED them from removig their design flaws.That same PU that won all those races for RBR was designed and run in the McLaren that last year. Naturally, it was new, so it had reliability issues. They fixed them over the next 2 years and it kept improving after that. The 2025 PU in RBR was basically that same ICE structure that ran in McLaren in 2017, with a bunch of added tweaks along the way.

I've said this before, the FIA and F1 don't care about efficiency cause they're using green fuel. Doesn't matter how much of it you burn cause it created oxygen and sucked up CO2s in it previous form. I think it was mistake getting rid of the MGU-H but that's not why they got rid of it.They got rid of it cause RBPT, Audi and Cadillac wouldn't have joined if they didn't get rid of it. It is what it is.

[diffuser]

I think it's 100% different. In 2015 they were coming in fresh. They got many things wrong in the block itself. The turbo sizing and placement they got wrong, then the token system locked them into their original bad design and made it really hard for them to correct. This year's block is pretty much the same as the one they've been perfecting for the last 8 years. Even if the people aren't there they can see the block with their eyes. What's changed it No MGU-H, bigger MGU-K, the position the MGU-K connects to the crankshaft is different position, the fuel and CR. The Fuel and CR will like effect the heads and pistons design (combustion). So the block the connecting rods are probably the same. The crank has changed to handle more power from the MGU-K and the position it connects to it. Even the Turbo has more limitations on it's placement (less chance to get it wrong).

I would guess that even if Honda combustion isn't as good as everyone else. Lets say down 2% in power. That can be made up by chassis, the car could be competitive.

Good points but, was that Honda's fault or McLaren's fault ? I think McLaren wanted a "Size zero" engine and gave Honda the dimensions they expected and wanted and Honda built a smaller lighter engine with a smaller turbo at McLaren's request.

Once Honda went to Toro Rosso / Red Bull things took off pretty quickly where they were allowed to develop the engine more on their own terms.

What are your opinions on the MGU-H / K ? Do you think the elimination of the MGU-H and a bigger MGU-K is a step forward or backwards for efficiency for hybrid technology ?

The Mclaren v Honda debate, to me (my 2 cents), it really was both parties at fault. McLaren pushed Honda to enter a year earlier than Honda would have preferred, and also with some "hopeful" requests on the engine, but Honda also agreed, to both, with zero experience on these engines.
Also, the design they were pursuing on the first engine was quickly found to be completely off target once they hit the track in the car. So if they joined in 2016, would they have been better off? I'm not sure. No data points to know. It took a disaster to force them into the 2017 design which only then did that second disaster really wake Honda up entirely to using their full company capabilities, and money and decide to properly structure their outfit. Red Bull being open to theme experimenting and basically using Toro Rosso as a moving test bench in 2018 greatly accelerated their potential.
I would say it was the RA621 in 2021 where they made a huge jump architecturally to become front runners. And without the hardships, whether they would have gotten there? Hard to say, probably yes, but timeframe wise? Who knows.

Really what did they change? We don't have any data with regards to dyno numbers.

#1 I don't believe the architecture changed after they got help with the split turbo from Honda aeronautical in 2018. Even that, I thought they just helped balance the shaft of the split turbo. They did change the split turbo and MGU-H into one piece then. So when they changed parts after that, those 2 were always replaced together as one. Even then we don't know if they actually changed the architecture of the turbo/MGU-H. It could have just been that Honda aeronautical just balanced the shaft with a specific compressor, turbine and MGU-H. So keeping those same parts together after the balance would keep the balance. Replacing any one of those parts could throw off the balance.

After that it was just tweaks to combustion. So we're talking combustion chamber changes.