Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[GhostF1]

I think to be successful in today's F1 the engine manufacturer has to have a bigger say in the design of the car. There's not much you can do if you're way down on power and there is a large power deficit to other teams/engines regardless of how good the aero department is...

The aero departments of each team are very good and are now equal with spending/budget cost cap and limiting time/hours spent with CFD, wind tunnel, testing bans, etc.

It use to be different 30 years ago during the V10 era where the power of each engine was a little closer and aero mattered more. Back then, in the early 2000's BMW's slight power advantage could not over come the very conservative aero philosophy of the Williams car. McLaren, Ferrari and Renault/Benetton had a more aggressive aero/suspension approach.

Today, the aero department needs to design their car around the engine and not dictate to the engine manufacturer the size of the engine. The McLaren "size zero" disaster with Honda is a great example.

The Red Bull / Toro Rosso relationship with Honda was great, they let Honda build the engine and built the chassis/aero around it, it worked.

With Aston Martin, I'm sensing a little "McLaren" authoritarian dictating to Honda but, I could be completely wrong about that. There is an obvious power deficit Honda has for the first part of 2026.

I think all the Mercedes' supplied teams all build their cars around the Mercedes engine including the factory Petronas Mercedes team. Every Mercedes supplied team has good speed numbers, sort of like a plug-in play.

I think it's 100% different. In 2015 they were coming in fresh. They got many things wrong in the block itself. The turbo sizing and placement they got wrong, then the token system locked them into their original bad design and made it really hard for them to correct. This year's block is pretty much the same as the one they've been perfecting for the last 8 years. Even if the people aren't there they can see the block with their eyes. What's changed it No MGU-H, bigger MGU-K, the position the MGU-K connects to the crankshaft is different position, the fuel and CR. The Fuel and CR will like effect the heads and pistons design (combustion). So the block the connecting rods are probably the same. The crank has changed to handle more power from the MGU-K and the position it connects to it. Even the Turbo has more limitations on it's placement (less chance to get it wrong).

I would guess that even if Honda combustion isn't as good as everyone else. Lets say down 2% in power. That can be made up by chassis, the car could be competitive.

Good points but, was that Honda's fault or McLaren's fault ? I think McLaren wanted a "Size zero" engine and gave Honda the dimensions they expected and wanted and Honda built a smaller lighter engine with a smaller turbo at McLaren's request.

Once Honda went to Toro Rosso / Red Bull things took off pretty quickly where they were allowed to develop the engine more on their own terms.

What are your opinions on the MGU-H / K ? Do you think the elimination of the MGU-H and a bigger MGU-K is a step forward or backwards for efficiency for hybrid technology ?

The Mclaren v Honda debate, to me (my 2 cents), it really was both parties at fault. McLaren pushed Honda to enter a year earlier than Honda would have preferred, and also with some "hopeful" requests on the engine, but Honda also agreed, to both, with zero experience on these engines.
Also, the design they were pursuing on the first engine was quickly found to be completely off target once they hit the track in the car. So if they joined in 2016, would they have been better off? I'm not sure. No data points to know. It took a disaster to force them into the 2017 design which only then did that second disaster really wake Honda up entirely to using their full company capabilities, and money and decide to properly structure their outfit. Red Bull being open to theme experimenting and basically using Toro Rosso as a moving test bench in 2018 greatly accelerated their potential.
I would say it was the RA621 in 2021 where they made a huge jump architecturally to become front runners. And without the hardships, whether they would have gotten there? Hard to say, probably yes, but timeframe wise? Who knows.

[Honda Porsche fan]

Teams should try to replicate what Mercedes is doing and how they operate, how their corporate structure is setup. From 2021 to 2025 they did not win the title but, were still consistent top 3 team. They still won multiple races in 2025.

[diffuser]

Good points but, was that Honda's fault or McLaren's fault ? I think McLaren wanted a "Size zero" engine and gave Honda the dimensions they expected and wanted and Honda built a smaller lighter engine with a smaller turbo at McLaren's request.

Once Honda went to Toro Rosso / Red Bull things took off pretty quickly where they were allowed to develop the engine more on their own terms.

What are your opinions on the MGU-H / K ? Do you think the elimination of the MGU-H and a bigger MGU-K is a step forward or backwards for efficiency for hybrid technology ?

If you don't know what happened then don't make shiit up. You guys don't read. How many times do I have to repeat that the FIA changed the regs for 2017. That allowed Honda to completely redesign the PU from scratch while they were still at McLaren. BEFORE that the regs PREVENTED them from removig their design flaws.That same PU that won all those races for RBR was designed and run in the McLaren that last year. Naturally, it was new, so it had reliability issues. They fixed them over the next 2 years and it kept improving after that. The 2025 PU in RBR was basically that same ICE structure that ran in McLaren in 2017, with a bunch of added tweaks along the way.

I've said this before, the FIA and F1 don't care about efficiency cause they're using green fuel. Doesn't matter how much of it you burn cause it created oxygen and sucked up CO2s in it previous form. I think it was mistake getting rid of the MGU-H but that's not why they got rid of it.They got rid of it cause RBPT, Audi and Cadillac wouldn't have joined if they didn't get rid of it. It is what it is.

[diffuser]

I think it's 100% different. In 2015 they were coming in fresh. They got many things wrong in the block itself. The turbo sizing and placement they got wrong, then the token system locked them into their original bad design and made it really hard for them to correct. This year's block is pretty much the same as the one they've been perfecting for the last 8 years. Even if the people aren't there they can see the block with their eyes. What's changed it No MGU-H, bigger MGU-K, the position the MGU-K connects to the crankshaft is different position, the fuel and CR. The Fuel and CR will like effect the heads and pistons design (combustion). So the block the connecting rods are probably the same. The crank has changed to handle more power from the MGU-K and the position it connects to it. Even the Turbo has more limitations on it's placement (less chance to get it wrong).

I would guess that even if Honda combustion isn't as good as everyone else. Lets say down 2% in power. That can be made up by chassis, the car could be competitive.

Good points but, was that Honda's fault or McLaren's fault ? I think McLaren wanted a "Size zero" engine and gave Honda the dimensions they expected and wanted and Honda built a smaller lighter engine with a smaller turbo at McLaren's request.

Once Honda went to Toro Rosso / Red Bull things took off pretty quickly where they were allowed to develop the engine more on their own terms.

What are your opinions on the MGU-H / K ? Do you think the elimination of the MGU-H and a bigger MGU-K is a step forward or backwards for efficiency for hybrid technology ?

The Mclaren v Honda debate, to me (my 2 cents), it really was both parties at fault. McLaren pushed Honda to enter a year earlier than Honda would have preferred, and also with some "hopeful" requests on the engine, but Honda also agreed, to both, with zero experience on these engines.
Also, the design they were pursuing on the first engine was quickly found to be completely off target once they hit the track in the car. So if they joined in 2016, would they have been better off? I'm not sure. No data points to know. It took a disaster to force them into the 2017 design which only then did that second disaster really wake Honda up entirely to using their full company capabilities, and money and decide to properly structure their outfit. Red Bull being open to theme experimenting and basically using Toro Rosso as a moving test bench in 2018 greatly accelerated their potential.
I would say it was the RA621 in 2021 where they made a huge jump architecturally to become front runners. And without the hardships, whether they would have gotten there? Hard to say, probably yes, but timeframe wise? Who knows.

Really what did they change? We don't have any data with regards to dyno numbers.

#1 I don't believe the architecture changed after they got help with the split turbo from Honda aeronautical in 2018. Even that, I thought they just helped balance the shaft of the split turbo. They did change the split turbo and MGU-H into one piece then. So when they changed parts after that, those 2 were always replaced together as one. Even then we don't know if they actually changed the architecture of the turbo/MGU-H. It could have just been that Honda aeronautical just balanced the shaft with a specific compressor, turbine and MGU-H. So keeping those same parts together after the balance would keep the balance. Replacing any one of those parts could throw off the balance.

After that it was just tweaks to combustion. So we're talking combustion chamber changes.

[Hoffman900]

I’m not sure where the debate is here, Honda has shared the entire lifetime of changes over the development, and all of this publicly, and it’s been linked here many times.

As said earlier, no one reads here as I have also discovered. People seem more interested in the fight than learning.

[Sasha]

"Major Tom to Honda"
"we have a problem with the MGU-K"
"It's tearing the ship apart"
"Scottie beam us out"

They was seeing the signs of this with their past PU.
Now it's 350 kw and at a different location(front of the ICE).

[Honda Porsche fan]

For 2026, there's obviously a serious vibration problem...

Is this vibration problem caused 100% by Honda or does the Aston Martin chassis have any effects and might exacerbate the problem ?

Adrian Newey sort of took a slight shot at Honda publicly, Honda responded that all F1 engines produce vibration and the chassis is what's exacerbating it. There are rumors that Adrian Newey's design this season is ultra stiff ?

This is a P.R. nightmare and I don't think Aston Martin and Adrian Newey are handling it well. How Christian Horner dealt with Honda at RB I think was a better approach, just be diplomatic and if there are any problems don't air it out publicly, keep it behind closed doors. From what I've read over the years about the the Japanese is they do not like public disrespect, they take things very personal and they remember.

Plus, just in general I don't think it's good to give the media anything to run with and then it becomes a bigger distraction. I always wondered why more people don't respond to a reporter's question with, "No comment."

[GhostF1]

I’m not sure where the debate is here, Honda has shared the entire lifetime of changes over the development, and all of this publicly, and it’s been linked here many times.

As said earlier, no one reads here as I have also discovered. People seem more interested in the fight than learning.

Exactly lol. All fight, zero actual knowledge or interest in reading anything. I have zero idea why the engine growth and change is up for debate lol. Honda literally have posted up detailed changes to every engine.

[Honda Porsche fan]

I’m not sure where the debate is here, Honda has shared the entire lifetime of changes over the development, and all of this publicly, and it’s been linked here many times.

As said earlier, no one reads here as I have also discovered. People seem more interested in the fight than learning.

Exactly lol. All fight, zero actual knowledge or interest in reading anything. I have zero idea why the engine growth and change is up for debate lol. Honda literally have posted up detailed changes to every engine.

Where should we get our news from? Directly from the F1 paddock reporters or, the growing number of YouTubers who cover F1 ? Do you go directly to teams and engine manufacturers ? Or, people who post on here?

Who do you trust and who is right? What's the official correct source? Aston Martin? Honda? They both are contradicting each other publicly in the video below...

[GhostF1]

I’m not sure where the debate is here, Honda has shared the entire lifetime of changes over the development, and all of this publicly, and it’s been linked here many times.

As said earlier, no one reads here as I have also discovered. People seem more interested in the fight than learning.

Exactly lol. All fight, zero actual knowledge or interest in reading anything. I have zero idea why the engine growth and change is up for debate lol. Honda literally have posted up detailed changes to every engine.

Where should we get our news from? Directly from the F1 paddock reporters or, the growing number of YouTubers who cover F1 ? Do you go directly to teams and engine manufacturers ? Or, people who post on here?

Who do you trust and who is right? What's the official correct source? Aston Martin? Honda? They both are contradicting each other publicly...

My only advice is to just identify who it is actually saying the things posted/vlogged/articles written (where's the reference info?). Like what is the actual source? Personally, I have never gone to Youtube for any accurate information, there is a lot of biased ragebait nonsense for clicks on there. Some respected engineers or tech journalists post on X/Twitter occasionally.

As we were discussing the previous power unit in this quote. Here are a few pages you might find interesting.

https://global.honda/en/tech/motorsport ... ain_e-fuel
https://global.honda/en/tech/motorsport ... om=related
https://global.honda/en/tech/motorsport ... om=related
https://global.honda/en/tech/motorsport ... om=related
https://global.honda/en/tech/motorsport ... om=related

These are all a fascinating read. Even the Honda V6 hybrid f1 engine wikipedia page ( ) is shockingly detailed by a few engineers also using info directly from Honda as references.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_V6_ ... power_unit#.

As for the current engine, all we know is, it is probably a little premature in overall spec and likely several reasons are cause for the vibration. The current leading idea (note: idea) is the connection between the MGU-K and ICE and how both are mounted to the chassis. Honestly, logic says the MAIN source is obviously the power unit. The chassis is, at most, not doing the greatest damping job, at most, but something this severe.. you'd surely be looking at the source. It's not a new thing, Honda have been fighting vibrations throughout the entire hybrid era. But exponentially increasing the MGU-K's size has drastically exacerbated the issue. Their words. This is literally all we really know. Everything else so far is hearsay, but it is good to discuss possibilities. Some decide to "claim" or post rumours and aggressively fight others over nothing however.

[Honda Porsche fan]

How many people here are Japanese vs westerners ?

It's obvious this is a cultural issue (Japan, west) and a philosophical issue.

As long as Honda does it all in Japan with the Japanese way and Honda's philosophy of using F1 as an educational tool for their employees and have large turnover i.e. bring in workers to gain knowledge on F1 for 5 to 6 years and move them on to another part of the company and bring in new engineers..... this cycle will continue. Honda will start off slow, people claim this is all a disaster, then Honda starts to get competitive and then dominates for 4 to 6 years and then boom, big down turn, and it starts all over again. That is how Honda's corporate structure works. You are beholden to their corporate decision making from the boardroom. It's not a smaller British UK aero design office.

It's going to require a lot of patience from Aston Martin and fans of Honda.

Mercedes decided to have their entire F1 program (engine, chassis) be made 100% in the UK, mostly by British staff, not in Germany.

If Red Bull can get it right with their own in-house engine program with assistance from Ford, they will be all set too.


I'll throw this question out there, should Aston Martin hire Christian Horner as Team Principle and let Adrian Newey just stick to aero/chassis design like at Red Bull ?

[diffuser]

::::

[diffuser]

How many people here are Japanese vs westerners ?

It's obvious this is a cultural issue (Japan, west) and a philosophical issue.

As long as Honda does it all in Japan with the Japanese way and Honda's philosophy of using F1 as an educational tool for their employees and have large turnover i.e. bring in workers to gain knowledge on F1 for 5 to 6 years and move them on to another part of the company and bring in new engineers..... this cycle will continue. Honda will start off slow, people claim this is all a disaster, then Honda starts to get competitive and then dominates for 4 to 6 years and then boom, big down turn, and it starts all over again. That is how Honda's corporate structure works. You are beholden to their corporate decision making from the boardroom. It's not a smaller British UK aero design office.

It's going to require a lot of patience from Aston Martin and fans of Honda.

Mercedes decided to have their entire F1 program (engine, chassis) be made 100% in the UK, mostly by British staff, not in Germany.

If Red Bull can get it right with their own in-house engine program with assistance from Ford, they will be all set too.


I'll throw this question out there, should Aston Martin hire Christian Horner as Team Principle and let Adrian Newey just stick to aero/chassis design like at Red Bull ?

#1 It isn't a culture issue. Honda has now been in F1 for 12 straight years. They didn't just move there yesterday. AMR signed a contract with Honda knowing they were in Japan. AMR waited too long to take the steps to manage that relationship. That was assigning Cowell to that project and allowing him to pick a team.

#2 Yes, that has been the pattern.

#3 yes, lots of patience.

#4 Do you think Horner would work for AMR as TP and report to Newey? Basically having the title but no teeth?

#5 Why would spend your Money on Horner, when all you really need is a talking head?

[delsando53]

was there a sign initially before the reveal date, during the sound clip of Honda, especially toward the end a slight drop in rev is this associated with vibrations? (at 10sec mark)

[mzso]

The Mclaren v Honda debate, to me (my 2 cents), it really was both parties at fault. McLaren pushed Honda to enter a year earlier than Honda would have preferred, and also with some "hopeful" requests on the engine, but Honda also agreed, to both, with zero experience on these engines.
Also, the design they were pursuing on the first engine was quickly found to be completely off target once they hit the track in the car

They had a full year when they could do virtually anything, while everyone else was prevented from making developments. They didn't make good use of it.
If they only figure out that they're off target when hitting the track then they didn't even bother paying attention to the competition. Which would be weird since McLaren was using the best engine for that year.