2026 Oracle Red Bull Racing F1 Team

[FW17]

Read again what I wrote

if it wasn't sour grapes, you would not be posting on this

No, I am posting this because it is silly to praise a 4x WDC for spinning on lap 1.

Whats your point?

[Paa]

These freeze-framed videos oversell it a bit. This is all driver-instinct. He is not actively thinking about performing any of these micro-actions. It just happens because of driver feel in the car.

Can anyone do it? No, not really. But it’s also true you can be at the mercy of physics sometimes and what you see it’s not always intentional. That’s all luck is underplaying it, and comes off as a sour grapes sort of comment. But it’s also not something to put a driver on pedestal about. Max has plenty to praise. Spinning on lap 1 shouldn’t be one of those things.

We can analyze it, but the main point is that this has become Verstappen’s signature move. When he spins, he almost always manages to save it like this. I could easily think of 8–10 examples. What’s hard to recall, is a case where he spins like this and ends up facing backwards, like most other drivers usually do.

At the same time, I can barely think of examples of other drivers saving a spin this way. Pulling a quick 360 and losing only a couple of seconds. There are probably a few, but over the last decade there are likely fewer examples from all other drivers combined than from Max alone.

People don’t realize how counterintuitive it is to floor the throttle while spinning and facing backwards. The natural instinct is to slam the brakes, come to a stop, and then reassess. That’s what you usually see from most drivers.

[organic]

Would be curious to hear what anyone else has heard about Canada changes

Wache said at miami Canada will bring a minor package

Austria the rest of the weight - Erik van haren

[Emag]

These freeze-framed videos oversell it a bit. This is all driver-instinct. He is not actively thinking about performing any of these micro-actions. It just happens because of driver feel in the car.

Can anyone do it? No, not really. But it’s also true you can be at the mercy of physics sometimes and what you see it’s not always intentional. That’s all luck is underplaying it, and comes off as a sour grapes sort of comment. But it’s also not something to put a driver on pedestal about. Max has plenty to praise. Spinning on lap 1 shouldn’t be one of those things.

We can analyze it, but the main point is that this has become Verstappen’s signature move. When he spins, he almost always manages to save it like this. I could easily think of 8–10 examples. What’s hard to recall, is a case where he spins like this and ends up facing backwards, like most other drivers usually do.

At the same time, I can barely think of examples of other drivers saving a spin this way. Pulling a quick 360 and losing only a couple of seconds. There are probably a few, but over the last decade there are likely fewer examples from all other drivers combined than from Max alone.

People don’t realize how counterintuitive it is to floor the throttle while spinning and facing backwards. The natural instinct is to slam the brakes, come to a stop, and then reassess. That’s what you usually see from most drivers.

It depends a lot on how the car spins. Thats why I said you’re at the mercy of physics and its not always intentional. He didn’t do a 360 in 2016 at brazil for example. Different kind of dynamics involved on the spin.

And off the top of my head, here are some examples of drivers doing a 360 to save a spin :

- Lewis in zandvoort last year in one of the fp sessions
- Hadjar last year in Austria in one of the fp sessions
- Leclerc did it as a rookie on a Sauber back in 2018 German GP iirc
- And to be fair Leclerc also did it in Miami, but he still touched the wall a bit.
- Vettel as well did it in Hungary back in 2014 (not as gracefully I admit)

Maybe there’s more. Cant remember any from pre hybrid era.

[Paa]

We can analyze it, but the main point is that this has become Verstappen’s signature move. When he spins, he almost always manages to save it like this. I could easily think of 8–10 examples. What’s hard to recall, is a case where he spins like this and ends up facing backwards, like most other drivers usually do.

At the same time, I can barely think of examples of other drivers saving a spin this way. Pulling a quick 360 and losing only a couple of seconds. There are probably a few, but over the last decade there are likely fewer examples from all other drivers combined than from Max alone.

People don’t realize how counterintuitive it is to floor the throttle while spinning and facing backwards. The natural instinct is to slam the brakes, come to a stop, and then reassess. That’s what you usually see from most drivers.

It depends a lot on how the car spins. Thats why I said you’re at the mercy of physics and its not always intentional. He didn’t do a 360 in 2016 at brazil for example. Different kind of dynamics involved on the spin.

And off the top of my head, here are some examples of drivers doing a 360 to save a spin :

- Lewis in zandvoort last year in one of the fp sessions
- Hadjar last year in Austria in one of the fp sessions
- Leclerc did it as a rookie on a Sauber back in 2018 German GP iirc
- And to be fair Leclerc also did it in Miami, but he still touched the wall a bit.
- Vettel as well did it in Hungary back in 2014 (not as gracefully I admit)

Maybe there’s more. Cant remember any from pre hybrid era.

I don't think we are in disagreement. Of course there are spins that can't be saved (or not like this) and of course other drivers are capable of doing it, this is not unique to Max.
But I think we can also establish that whenever it is that kind of spun, then Max will going to do it with very high probability. There are tons of examples for it so far, much more than for any other driver on the grid.

[Silent Storm]

For context, that's an RB employee...

[f1isgood]

Doesn’t Wache have the last word when it comes to what concept they chase? He is the TD.

Correct, Wache is in charge of overall direction.

It is more likely that Skinner since his appointment as chief designer in 2022 has not been performing at the level RB/Wache demands.

Wache is overall responsible but to get the best out of people you need a certain degree of freedom in decision making. It could be Skinner was more often on the wrong side in discussions (e.g the 23/24 car issues and now with the wrong sidepod design)

Doubt it. I don't think van Haren is credible from a narrative point of view. He is paid to spin a certain narrative (the Verstappen camp's one or Jos') and he is doing that as they are his primary source.

From a narrative perspective, this would make perfect sense as it keeps the fans "calm". You still cannot simply run away from the reality that the team has lost so many serious people in the last few years and they will feel their loss. If someone like Marshall can have such an impact on McLaren (reportedly, although they were on the rise before he showed up anyways --- something so many people ignore, even on this forum), I am sure Skinner will also have a similar impact elsewhere at a top team. You cannot take away what's in their heads.

Wache is the head. He has been calling the shots since 2018. You cannot always get it correct. That said, this year was probably their worst start in years given that they have a wonder engine that is actually better than Ferrari's.

[Badger]

Correct, Wache is in charge of overall direction.

It is more likely that Skinner since his appointment as chief designer in 2022 has not been performing at the level RB/Wache demands.

Wache is overall responsible but to get the best out of people you need a certain degree of freedom in decision making. It could be Skinner was more often on the wrong side in discussions (e.g the 23/24 car issues and now with the wrong sidepod design)

Doubt it. I don't think van Haren is credible from a narrative point of view. He is paid to spin a certain narrative (the Verstappen camp's one or Jos') and he is doing that as they are his primary source.

From a narrative perspective, this would make perfect sense as it keeps the fans "calm". You still cannot simply run away from the reality that the team has lost so many serious people in the last few years and they will feel their loss. If someone like Marshall can have such an impact on McLaren (reportedly, although they were on the rise before he showed up anyways --- something so many people ignore, even on this forum), I am sure Skinner will also have a similar impact elsewhere at a top team. You cannot take away what's in their heads.

Wache is the head. He has been calling the shots since 2018. You cannot always get it correct. That said, this year was probably their worst start in years given that they have a wonder engine that is actually better than Ferrari's.

When someone is poached that is usually announced when their departure is made public, like with Marshall or GP. Skinner has not announced any next steps yet, no talks of where he is going next. That’s a pretty strong tell he may have been fired.

[f1isgood]

It is more likely that Skinner since his appointment as chief designer in 2022 has not been performing at the level RB/Wache demands.

Wache is overall responsible but to get the best out of people you need a certain degree of freedom in decision making. It could be Skinner was more often on the wrong side in discussions (e.g the 23/24 car issues and now with the wrong sidepod design)

Doubt it. I don't think van Haren is credible from a narrative point of view. He is paid to spin a certain narrative (the Verstappen camp's one or Jos') and he is doing that as they are his primary source.

From a narrative perspective, this would make perfect sense as it keeps the fans "calm". You still cannot simply run away from the reality that the team has lost so many serious people in the last few years and they will feel their loss. If someone like Marshall can have such an impact on McLaren (reportedly, although they were on the rise before he showed up anyways --- something so many people ignore, even on this forum), I am sure Skinner will also have a similar impact elsewhere at a top team. You cannot take away what's in their heads.

Wache is the head. He has been calling the shots since 2018. You cannot always get it correct. That said, this year was probably their worst start in years given that they have a wonder engine that is actually better than Ferrari's.

When someone is poached that is usually announced when their departure is made public, like with Marshall or GP. Skinner has not announced any next steps yet, no talks of where he is going next. That’s a pretty strong tell he may have been fired.

Depends on how low or high profile the person is. Marshall was known from his Renault days. Most people barely heard of Skinner before Horner's praise of him and Red Bull's own video of how he made the 2012 car go vroom.

It's also entirely possible and plausible that Skinner simply took a break. It serves van Haren's sources to promote Mekies as much as possible. They were after all behind the Horner firing whether it was for the or the bad. This much is not arguable imo and van Haren has to keep his sources to keep doing what he's doing.

[Badger]

Depends on how low or high profile the person is. Marshall was known from his Renault days. Most people barely heard of Skinner before Horner's praise of him and Red Bull's own video of how he made the 2012 car go vroom.

It's also entirely possible and plausible that Skinner simply took a break. It serves van Haren's sources to promote Mekies as much as possible. They were after all behind the Horner firing whether it was for the or the bad. This much is not arguable imo and van Haren has to keep his sources to keep doing what he's doing.

Craig Skinner was low profile? He was the chief designer at RB, everyone in the paddock knows who he is. You just say sh** for the sake of argument

EvH is the most well connected journalist in that team, with the track record to prove it. There's no conflicting reporting on this, there was an official statement from the team saying he left on his own accord with zero explanation for why, and then there's EvH saying he was actually fired behind the scenes. Trying to discredit this fairly minor follow-up story as some kind of paid propaganda is paranoid.

[AR3-GP]

EvH never tells a lie. Skinner was fired.

Power split is moved to 60:40 next year. VER has no excuse not to continue.

Sounds like Austria updates will be an attempt by engineering to impress the board and for Mintzlaff and Mekies to extend the Verstappen contract.

[f1isgood]

Depends on how low or high profile the person is. Marshall was known from his Renault days. Most people barely heard of Skinner before Horner's praise of him and Red Bull's own video of how he made the 2012 car go vroom.

It's also entirely possible and plausible that Skinner simply took a break. It serves van Haren's sources to promote Mekies as much as possible. They were after all behind the Horner firing whether it was for the or the bad. This much is not arguable imo and van Haren has to keep his sources to keep doing what he's doing.

Craig Skinner was low profile? He was the chief designer at RB, everyone in the paddock knows who he is. You just say sh** for the sake of argument

EvH is the most well connected journalist in that team, with the track record to prove it. There's no conflicting reporting on this, there was an official statement from the team saying he left on his own accord with zero explanation for why, and then there's EvH saying he was actually fired behind the scenes. Trying to discredit this fairly minor follow-up story as some kind of paid propaganda is paranoid.

I am sorry, but trying to trivialize an argument because you think Skinner wasn't low profile prior to 2022 regulations is borderline hilarious. That precisely makes my point.

[f1isgood]

EvH never tells a lie. Skinner was fired.

Power split is moved to 60:40 next year. VER has no excuse not to continue.

Sounds like Austria updates will be an attempt by engineering to impress the board and for Mintzlaff and Mekies to extend the Verstappen contract.

He reports accurately but everyone has a perspective. He will not say anything that doesn't align with what his sources want to say. That is basic reporting.

[Badger]

Depends on how low or high profile the person is. Marshall was known from his Renault days. Most people barely heard of Skinner before Horner's praise of him and Red Bull's own video of how he made the 2012 car go vroom.

It's also entirely possible and plausible that Skinner simply took a break. It serves van Haren's sources to promote Mekies as much as possible. They were after all behind the Horner firing whether it was for the or the bad. This much is not arguable imo and van Haren has to keep his sources to keep doing what he's doing.

Craig Skinner was low profile? He was the chief designer at RB, everyone in the paddock knows who he is. You just say sh** for the sake of argument

EvH is the most well connected journalist in that team, with the track record to prove it. There's no conflicting reporting on this, there was an official statement from the team saying he left on his own accord with zero explanation for why, and then there's EvH saying he was actually fired behind the scenes. Trying to discredit this fairly minor follow-up story as some kind of paid propaganda is paranoid.

I am sorry, but trying to trivialize an argument because you think Skinner wasn't low profile prior to 2022 regulations is borderline hilarious. That precisely makes my point.

What does it matter what he was prior to 2022? At the time of his firing he was a high profile F1 engineer. Your arguments make about as much sense as the current regulations.

He reports accurately but everyone has a perspective. He will not say anything that doesn't align with what his sources want to say. That is basic reporting.

Saying someone was fired if they were not is not a question of perspective, it would be an outright lie with potentially defamatory implications. I've never known EvH to lie.

[AR3-GP]

edit: wrong thread.