2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Joseki
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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The reality check should come from Ferrari. They are playing catch up and improving a lot with every update since 2015 but they still are behind Mercedes. Even if Honda starts to get everything right now they'll need at least 3-4 seasons to arrive at Mercedes' level, and we have to remember that new engines will be used in 2021.

I also understand why McLaren may want a Renault engine now, it's not the best but they'll be the fourth fastest team easily, pleasing at least sponsors and technical staff.

They could also start a joint venture with Cosworth (Zak Brown is in the board of both companies) for 2021 onwards and McLaren will have all the control they wish on the engine development.

marvin78
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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If Mercedes stays, no one will ever get the level of there PU (until there are knew rules). It's so far away from all the others that I doubt that anyone could get them even if from now on they only make reliability updates.

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HPD
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Here is your star employee.
Motorsport.com has learned the power unit was taken back to Milton Keynes for analysis but Honda could not find anything wrong and as a result have put it back in the pool.

It is available to use this weekend in Italy but it remains unclear when it will be drafted in as Honda is considering introducing an update on Alonso's car.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alon ... za-947207/

basti313
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Manoah2u wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 10:05
Phil wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 01:48

wall of biased blah blah
So when will you stop being a troll and stop fuming about your biased, unbased never-ending bashing and downgrading on Alonso?
Your post looks more like trolling. At least he tried to put up a perspective and you can argue about it...your post has nothing in it. It looks just like Jing-Jang.
Schuttelberg wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 10:17
Is it just me or does anyone else feel that Honda have definitely improved since the start of the year?
Difficult to answer. I think yes, but the whole Spa performance is puzzling me. If they can go flat in corners, where others can not...why not put down some wing???
Are they running too much downforce to pretend a good chassis???
Schuttelberg wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 10:17
There is no version of McLaren-Renault that convinces me. It screams mediocrity and that's not McLaren.
Why? RedBull is well of with Renault. Despite the problems with Ves, the engines run fine and they win races. Renault has a good history of treating their customers well and there is no strong Renault works team in sight.
Schuttelberg wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 10:17
People keep screaming 'Alonso doesn't deserve this!' Well, he made his own choices. McLaren and Honda are both bigger than him and like it or not, but either/or would be a bigger loss to F1 than him. To be very brutally honest, Alonso leaving McLaren won't be a bad thing at all for them. They can start focusing on the important things rather than stroking his enormous ego.
No one deserves anything. No idea, what "deserves" has to do with the situation.
At the moment Alo is simply a waste of money for McLaren-Honda and McLaren-Honda is a waste of time for Alo.
Don`t russel the hamster!

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Phil
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Sayeman wrote:
30 Aug 2017, 16:17
Mclaren just doesn't want a divorce, they want a divorce and another 200 million dough from Honda to pay for Renault engines for the next 2-3 years. Laughable really, you berate your business partner every day and then expect him to butter you up with bunch of money when you kick him out of f1.
This.

I've been trying to wrap my head around this for a while now. Honda is paying a lot of money to McLaren. Not only that, but they are also making up for the losses in sponsorship, they are paying a large part of the driver salaries (Alonso's) and they are supplying the free engines. It's nearly like a blank check, with the tiny disadvantage that the engine is the weak link and preventing the team to actually score.

If we assume McLaren and Honda part ways by mutual agreement (e.g. neither will have to pay the other damages), McLaren is left in an arguably worse state than before Honda entered. Their image has suffered as a result of non-existing results and progress, still not a major sponsor to be found. Then they would need to cover the expenses of retaining Alonso and Stoffel as well as also financing engines. From receiving +100M to invest into all sorts of areas and build a better car, suddenly they'd be faced with spending ~+70M (engines+Alonso). That's a mighty swing and I'm just speculating with very moderate numbers here. I'd imagine Honda to be paying quite a bit more currently.

If you ask me, it can't work. McLaren would have to make huge compromises. Could they even afford to retain Alonso?

So termination by mutual agreement doesn't exactly work. This is where it gets tricky. Whoever breaches the contract would probably have to pay large amounts of money to the other. If McLaren terminates the contract one-sided, they'd have to pay Honda. Imagine the situation Honda would be in: Having invested millions into them re-entering F1 only to be shown the door without reaching anything? Not left with a single other team to supply and stay within the sport? You can bet that they wouldn't like this.

On the other hand, if Honda terminates the agreement, money would obviously have to flow in the other direction to cover the "damage". I would imagine this sum of money to be quite substantial - enough for McLaren to bridge the cost to pay for a deal with a different engine manufacturer (Renault), pay for Alonso and keep their technical staff and facilities for maybe 1 or 2 years before another sponsor would need to step in to foot some of those costs. Either way, it's a high stakes game. They need results.

This is probably the reason why McLaren is adamant race in and race out to showing the world that they are doing everything right, while Honda is doing every wrong. Publicly humiliating your partner and mobbing them out of the sport in other words, until some day, Honda just has enough and walks away, willingly paying McLaren for their damages and expenses. Or that would be (must be) the plan.

Alonso is probably one of the pawns who is willingly playing along. Which may be good for McLaren (if the grand master plan works out), but I still retain it can't be good for Alonso's image. Alonso (just as any driver), like it or not, is expendable. And it might backfire too.

If McLaren fail to mob Honda into leaving, they're pretty much stuck with them. I could well imagine a point that Honda could basically force Alonso out (if he doesn't leave by himself).

On the Sky Spa report show, Will Paxton mentioned that there could be an opening at Indy for a regular seat and could give Fernando a good opportunity to leave F1 for at least a year. As for McLaren... well, personally, I think their best bet is to stay with Honda. At some point, they will improve surely and as Schuttelberg mentioned, I agree that they have made strides this year. With the clamp down on burning oil etc, it's only a matter of time until the gap between the engine manufacturers narrow. And with the amount of money Honda has been investing into McLaren, they do have the means to pay for high quality staff, maintain those facilities and build a strong car.

As for Alonso - well, either way, I don't think he'll be in F1 much longer. If McLaren are forced to stick it out with Honda, Alonso will either be eating his words or he'll leave for Indy. If McLaren succeed by mobbing Honda out, the question is if McLaren are keen to retain Alonso for $40M a year. No doubt, Alonso brings a lot of performance to the table, but how crucial is that "performance" if the car is too far behind as a result of a handicapped engine? E.g. how much do i.e. 3 tenths gain you if your car is lagging behind by seconds? Changing engine partners does not seem to be the only factor - they'll also have to design and develop the car to suit that engine. Only the biggest optimist would consider McLaren to be anything close to winning-contenders next year, regardless which engine sits in the back... (IMO)
Last edited by Phil on 31 Aug 2017, 14:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Thunder
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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While it would be bad if Fernando left if McLaren was to keep Honda i'm more afraid of technical Staff leaving. Imagine Peter Prodromou's situation. Whatever he does is (and was since he joined McLaren) overshadowed by Honda's inability to produce something halfway decent. Wouldn't surprise me if he doesn't want to continue with Honda either and with him some other Key Members of the technical Staff. If that's the Case the Air for Honda gets very thin....

Even IF Honda were to come good 2018, what good is it if you have no one to design a complementary Chassis? Tricky Situation. Tough decisions to be made.
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BeardedAce
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Things were looking quite positive after Austria with the public beating of Honda quieted down a bit, but McLaren has up the ante once more. Honda has largely fixed the reliability and updates are flowing, they brought new updates in Spa, they will bring new updates in Monza, seems like updates every race, That's PROGRESS! Not like they are saying there won't be any more updates this year like Renault did. Yes, they failed to bring the big rumored update in Spa but they never promised it for Spa. Hasegawa said they will introduce it before the end of the year. Fernando's time is ticking, he's got at most 2 years at top, he wants a title NOW! But McLaren needs to think hard about it's own future before pandering to him and make any rash decision. Fernando's talent is undeniable and maybe he deserves more than 2 titles but it is what it is.

Honda won't change the architecture for next year, reliability is getting fixed so only power updates for next year, that's sounds good news to me. Agree or not, but they did show good progress in 2016 despite being handicapped. They are certain to make good progress next year.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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One thing I have just thought of is, If Alonso wins his war and Honda are kicked, does it mean he drives for free ? as its Honda paying his wages ?
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mclaren111
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Autosport:
According to Autosport, the Woking-based team have not been convinced that the Japanese manufacturer can improve their fortunes after issuing them with an ultimatum earlier in the season.

There is also pressure coming from Fernando Alonso, who said after his latest retirement in Spa that he would be willing to work with McLaren again next year but is not overly keen with the prospect of having to work with Honda as well.

It is set to be a messy break-up, but with rumours circulating that talks between Toro Rosso and Honda are back on, it would free up McLaren to be powered by Renault next season.

McLaren would be willing to supply Toro Rosso with their gearboxes if it meant the Red Bull junior team having Honda power units in their car, but Honda are believed to be reluctant at this stage to agree a deal as they still believe they can make McLaren great again.
I simply can not see a break-up happening. And Mclaren must give the new 2017 concept a second year of development before making such a crucial and final decision.

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RS200E
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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The reaction here to the Renault rumours are... disappointing.

Mix that with Alonso undecided on his future and it's pages upon pages of wild long winded speculation fuelled by crappy articles.

I don't visit any of these tabloid F1 news sites anymore. When there's real news, it finds you.
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ZakB
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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mclaren111 wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 14:48
Autosport:
According to Autosport, the Woking-based team have not been convinced that the Japanese manufacturer can improve their fortunes after issuing them with an ultimatum earlier in the season.

There is also pressure coming from Fernando Alonso, who said after his latest retirement in Spa that he would be willing to work with McLaren again next year but is not overly keen with the prospect of having to work with Honda as well.

It is set to be a messy break-up, but with rumours circulating that talks between Toro Rosso and Honda are back on, it would free up McLaren to be powered by Renault next season.

McLaren would be willing to supply Toro Rosso with their gearboxes if it meant the Red Bull junior team having Honda power units in their car, but Honda are believed to be reluctant at this stage to agree a deal as they still believe they can make McLaren great again.
I simply can not see a break-up happening. And Mclaren must give the new 2017 concept a second year of development before making such a crucial and final decision.
I can't see it it not happen. How can people still think that Honda will close a gap of 80BHP, while they haven't produced one decent engine. Sure, McLaren-Honds sounds good, but I don't believe one thing Hasegawa says anymore and McLaren probably feels the same way. The relationship is done and the big update, which should bring 40BHP (according to Honda), will come after the Japanese GP.

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Thunder
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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Deep down i want them to continue with Honda, it's just hard to imagine how they fix the PU in a timely manner.....
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diffuser
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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There is still a strong possibility that it's just media hype. Zak never comes out and says he wants to get rid of Honda. He just says "all the options are on the table". Same with Alonzo. In the post SPA race interview, When asked it is gonna be Honda or him, he said "no, it's not like that, I'm just a driver....".

Clearly they are frustrated and are applying pressure. Are there options for them to make it worth leave Honda? If it costs them 200 Million to leave Honda to get Renault. Will the Renault 2018 PU difference with Honda be worth 200 Million? How much happier would Fernando be if he was in Max's position?

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diffuser
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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ZakB wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 15:15
mclaren111 wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 14:48
Autosport:
According to Autosport, the Woking-based team have not been convinced that the Japanese manufacturer can improve their fortunes after issuing them with an ultimatum earlier in the season.

There is also pressure coming from Fernando Alonso, who said after his latest retirement in Spa that he would be willing to work with McLaren again next year but is not overly keen with the prospect of having to work with Honda as well.

It is set to be a messy break-up, but with rumours circulating that talks between Toro Rosso and Honda are back on, it would free up McLaren to be powered by Renault next season.

McLaren would be willing to supply Toro Rosso with their gearboxes if it meant the Red Bull junior team having Honda power units in their car, but Honda are believed to be reluctant at this stage to agree a deal as they still believe they can make McLaren great again.
I simply can not see a break-up happening. And Mclaren must give the new 2017 concept a second year of development before making such a crucial and final decision.
I can't see it it not happen. How can people still think that Honda will close a gap of 80BHP, while they haven't produced one decent engine. Sure, McLaren-Honds sounds good, but I don't believe one thing Hasegawa says anymore and McLaren probably feels the same way. The relationship is done and the big update, which should bring 40BHP (according to Honda), will come after the Japanese GP.
Their problem isn't Bulk HP. It's the efficiency from the combustion and the whole ERS.

CBeck113
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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I honestly hope that they choose to let Alonso go, and he can then join Indy next year. At the same time, and more importantly for myself as a fan, I'd really like to see McLaren concentrate on the fundamentals which make a team strong, since they've been riding the "Honda is to blame" too far imo. Yes, they do not have a power unit capable of winning a GP, quite the opposite (worst 2017 spec on the grid). But they also need to analyze the size zero concept put on their partner, and determine ways to help on the chassis side (free up more room for more flexibility for the installation, increase cooling capacity, etc.). Letting Alonso go would also, maybe more importantly, take pressure off the team to develop and persue a more robust long term plan to get back to the top, allowing the business to function without the external noise caused by their "star performer". That would also allow them to being the search for sponsors (while I think Alonso is a brilliant driver I wouldn't want my company's name link with his behavior), solidifying cross-system processes, improving weak areas, and generally reestablishing the team post Dennis and Alonso. Even if they do not win a championship over the next three years, they will make good progress without the "win now" attitude, and should be able to close the gap as Red Bull have also managed.

Switching to Renault would mean the loss of funding to secure the third best engine...very bad deal from a business perspective, and our belove3d sport is nothing else but a business.
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