2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[Vasconia]

McLaren will stay with Renault until Honda is ready or new manufacturers enter. Temporal solution to collect more points and some podiums. With better performances sponsors will return and McLaren´s situation will be better, easing the pressure for a new PU change.

Dont believe for a second that Honda will take McLaren back as a customer after such an ugly breakup. There is a lot at stake for Honda. If this break up goes through, with all the public humiliation, this partnership is gone for good. If Honda goes with RedBull/TorroRosso, they'll be riding that success story (if it comes to that), not McLaren.

Yes, I have just pointed out which could be the options. I tend to think that McLaren will try find another PU supplier for 2021.

But never say never in F1...

[Thunder]

2- Reliability: similar to Honda, ask Verstappen

At least take 30sec. on Google to check your Facts next time....
https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/form ... ente-2017/

Maybe that´s good reliability for you, not for me. Don´t get fooled with Honda comparison, Renault is building PUs for the same time Mercedes and Ferrari. Compare with those and you´ll realize Renault reliability is far from decent. Better to Honda, ok, but with more experience.

I don´t think McLaren is willing to break a good contract with Honda only to use a different PU wich also receive several penalties due to lack of reliability, and that without good perfomance. At least now they get paid by Honda

Who said anything about good reliability? You were takling about similar reliability.

Red Bull used 46 Parts, Toro Rosso and Renault 42 each. McLaren used 89. Yeah, almost the same....

[zxof]

Seriously people, is it so hard to understand the concept of damage mitigation ?!

- Yes we all wished at some point that Honda finally had a breaktrough with their PU.
- Yes it´s better to have a works deal anytime before a customer deal.
- Yes Mclaren wants championships and not just random wins/podiums

...And the list can go on and on. But you know what guys, that ship has sailed!

That´s what your crystal ball said?

Or you´ve some insights from Honda, have seen the PU, the engineers, etc. and know their work is useless and they will never solve their problems, not in this, next or 2019 seasons?


Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes, all the dominant teams in past decade/s, actually needed 3-4 seasons before succeding. Assuming they won´t succed because they didn´t in 3th season, when they were severly restricted by token in two thirds of that period is so absurd... it´s pure fanboyism... "I don´t like them, I´m bored, get rid of them"

If Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes needed 3-4 seasons to succed without restrictions, I think 4-5 seasons is the least we should concede to McHonda.

But you need some perspective to be that patient

I don't think it's fanboyism, I was a believer that token system hold them down but if it's not token system there's always something else to blame.
Of course every successful team in the past needed 3-4 seasons but there're clear progress (with hiccups along the way).

I mean... we've completed 13/20 races this year.
This is McLaren - honda 3rd season and they've collected 11 points, how many people even at honda can call this as progress.

[OviJohn]

Seriously people, is it so hard to understand the concept of damage mitigation ?!

- Yes we all wished at some point that Honda finally had a breaktrough with their PU.
- Yes it´s better to have a works deal anytime before a customer deal.
- Yes Mclaren wants championships and not just random wins/podiums

...And the list can go on and on. But you know what guys, that ship has sailed!

That´s what your crystal ball said?

Or you´ve some insights from Honda, have seen the PU, the engineers, etc. and know their work is useless and they will never solve their problems, not in this, next or 2019 seasons?
...

I dont have a crystal ball, but Mclaren has more insight about the whole affair plus a guy named Illien, as I mentioned in my post. So, do you think they´ll make this decision to split "just because?" Or do you actually believe that Mclaren is willing to wait for the 4, 5 years it usually takes to become winners? If that was the case that would be an easy PR talk to feed for all the media, fans and staff enduring the situation; dont you think?

If you´ve payed attention to Zaks interviews, Alonso (Last night at "El Hormiguero" http://soymotor.com/noticias/alonso-en- ... ana-939059) , and EBs latest (below); you´d know that Mclaren and company are at their limit and cannot afford to wait any longer for Honda to come good. The plan was 3 years, not 4, not 5. So yeah, both are to blame for "Believing" they could outdo F1 history

Eric Boullier: Honda failed. It's time to make a decision

Source: https://www.f1news.ru/interview/boullier/123499.shtml

Racing director McLaren Eric Boullier in an exclusive interview with F1News.ru unequivocally stated that Honda did not cope with the tasks that faced the Japanese minder - probably these words can be considered a kind of sentence.

In the text of the interview there are a few more points that indirectly confirm: in McLaren are preparing to change the supplier of engines, and Fernando Alonso may well remain in the team for at least a year ...

Question: If there is a crisis - in any sphere, be it economy or, for example, personal life, as a rule it is not some definite moment of time, but a certain period that can be broken into several phases. What phase of the crisis period is going through now McLaren?
Eric Boullier: (after a pause) This is the final decision stage. As in your personal life, first you try to achieve some improvement, try one scenario, then another, a third, maybe even the fourth. And then come to a certain conclusion. Now we are at this stage.

We are negotiating with all interested parties, and now it's time to get answers and make decisions.

Question: At a recent meeting with the press Zach Brown stressed that no decisions have been taken yet ...
Eric Boullier: That's right.

Question: But at the same time, September is already on the calendar. Obviously, whatever the solution, you will face additional difficulties, simply because there is very little time left? Or all problems can be solved at the expense of financial injections, allocation of any additional resources?
Eric Boullier: No, you can not squeeze time. In theory, we could make a decision later, but this will negatively affect our results in the next year. We are already in the "red zone", so the decision must be made not today - tomorrow, in any case, this week, and not on the next. For example, in two weeks it will be too late in Singapore.

Question: I want to remind you of an interview two years ago for F1News.ru in Silverstone. In 2015, you said literally the following: "I want to prove that McLaren and Honda can win together."
Eric Boullier: Yes, he said.

Question: Are you ready to repeat these words now?
Eric Boullier: (grins) Now I would have said differently. Since 2015, as partners with Honda, we have set ourselves certain goals. Then all agreed on everything, the plans were agreed upon and accepted by both sides. Since then, McLaren has been able to achieve all of the goals, but Honda failed 100% of the time. If they had accomplished their tasks, we could have won together. But now I'm not sure that it's possible.

Question: In the same interview you praised Fernando Alonso and said that he was pushing the team, pushing it in the right direction. Does he still do it?
Eric Boullier: Yes, definitely.

Question: And in what direction is he pushing McLaren now?
Eric Boullier: In the right!

Q: So you are still allies?
Eric Boullier: Yes. Fernando has access to all our calculations, he is aware of everything that is associated with the modernization of the chassis, but with this all right. He likes our approach to work, likes the people who surround him, and I think he still believes in McLaren. Probably, in Honda's ability to achieve goals, he believes less.

Question: There have been big changes in the leadership of McLaren. How did this affect the atmosphere in the team? Were the tasks McLaren shareholders put in place, appointing Zach Brown to the position of executive director of McLaren Group?
Eric Boullier: It's not just about Zach Brown's appointment. Inside the McLaren Group, in its various divisions was a complete restructuring. As for McLaren Racing, this company has not touched the changes at all. Everything remains as it was.

I would say that the biggest visible change is that the leadership of the entire group of companies has become more accessible to contacts - due to the fact that the so-called executive committee was formed, which includes the owners of McLaren - Sheikh Mohammed bin Issa Al Khalifa and Mansour Ojay. They regularly visit the company's office and are in constant interaction with the team.

Zack Brown is responsible for business matters, and in this area, too, there are positive changes. He actively communicates with the sponsors, takes care of them and changes the approaches that were practiced in this area before.

Jonathan Neale now oversees several areas, responsible for the effective operation of all units of the McLaren Group, but at the same time in McLaren Racing nothing has changed. All reforms took place at higher levels, and it did not affect me, the head of McLaren Racing. All the operational work we are doing together with John Cooper and Simon Roberts, my functional duties and the work of my technical team did not change at all.

Q: It looks like Zach Brown was a good choice for McLaren? Including because the big changes occur in the Formula 1 with the arrival of new owners, the American company Liberty Media. He is also an American, probably, it is easier for him to understand his compatriots. It is now clear that Formula 1 is starting to move in a new direction - are you personally 100% supportive of all these reforms?
Eric Boullier: But in fact, in fact, we have not seen anything yet. Discussions are underway, but we do not exactly know what will be proposed to change, and what will really change in the future. But already now, the desire of new owners to improve the quality of the show on the track and beyond. And the results of this work are already noticeable: spectators in the stands have become much more. Last week in the Spa was something incredible, I have not seen it for 15 years!

The interest is very large, and it's great. Formula 1 has not lost its appeal, and as soon as you slightly increase the entertainment, add some new activities for the public during race weekends, interact more actively with it through social networks - voila! At the race already comes to 15% more fans.

Question: But there are also more complex tasks, for example, everyone is now talking about the new engines that Formula 1 will have to go through in 2021. From your point of view, what kind of engines should these be, what can they become in reality? Can the concept of a future powerplant prove to be such that McLaren will think about the production of its own engines?
Eric Boullier: One of the problems is the current technical regulations of Formula 1. Hybrid powerplants are so complicated in the development, production and operation that this resulted in a significant spread in the efficiency of Mercedes, Ferrari, Renault and Honda engines. For the future, we must ensure that this difference will be less, that the competitive environment will become more homogeneous and fair.

This can be achieved by shifting to simpler technologies, and technical solutions should be such that their implementation reduces the costs of developing, manufacturing and upgrading power plants. Therefore, there are discussions about a possible transition to engines with a dual turbo and MGU-K motor-generator, there should be nothing else there.

We should see the new regulations on engines in the final form, evaluate development costs, and if they are at an acceptable level, then perhaps we will consider the issue of manufacturing our own engines.

Question: Up to 2021, there are three years left - is this time enough for the implementation of such a project?
Eric Boullier: Yes, quite.

Question: Let's talk about the McLaren drivers, because you also have a youth program, like the other big teams, and you are directly engaged in it. Does this mean that the next partner Stoffel Vandorn will necessarily be one of its participants, for example, Lando Norris?
Eric Boullier: Yes, of course. I think in the future everything will be just like this. But we do not know yet when exactly, because now we are quite happy with the work of Fernando and Stoffel. The contract with Vandorn has already been confirmed, and we also expect that the team will remain Fernando. We are ready to continue cooperation with Alonso, while he remains competitive, and while he likes to work with us. But who exactly from our young riders can go to the core of McLaren, I will not tell you yet.

EDIT: Names!

[Thunder]

The first Guy's Name is Illien, not Illmor. The Second Guy's Name is Boullier, not Boulliet. Just sayin....

[OviJohn]

The first Guy's Name is Illien, not Illmor. The Second Guy's Name is Boullier, not Boulliet. Just sayin....

Noted sir Thunders!

[Cold Fussion]

2- Reliability: similar to Honda, ask Verstappen

At least take 30sec. on Google to check your Facts next time....
https://www.motorsport-magazin.com/form ... ente-2017/

Maybe that´s good reliability for you, not for me. Don´t get fooled with Honda comparison, Renault is building PUs for the same time Mercedes and Ferrari. Compare with those and you´ll realize Renault reliability is far from decent. Better to Honda, ok, but with more experience.

I don´t think McLaren is willing to break a good contract with Honda only to use a different PU wich also receive several penalties due to lack of reliability, and that without good perfomance. At least now they get paid by Honda

Mclaren has far worse reliability than Renault, and when their engines don't explode the performance is rubbish. On the right day on the right track Red Bull can win despite the Renault power deficit, this is simply not possible with Honda and there's little reason to think the situation will improve in the future.

[zeph]

Hmm....

Porsche is seriously considering returning to Formula 1 as an engine supplier under the proposed 2021 regulations, says its finance chief.

Lutz Meschke, deputy chairman of Porsche's executive board and member of the board for finances and IT, met with Ross Brawn and other F1 chiefs at the Italian Grand Prix.

Porsche will end its LMP1 programme at the end of 2017, having decided it does not get sufficient return for investment equivalent to an F1 budget.

It has committed to entering Formula E with a works-backed team from the 2019-20 season, but it has also sent representatives to the series of recent meetings about the 2021 F1 engine regulations.

It has been encouraged by F1's moves towards cheaper and simpler technology.

"F1 could be one of the right places," Meschke told Autosport.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13165 ... -programme


For a moment I was hopeful, but then:

He added that "discussions are around being a supplier", so forming a works team was not on the agenda.

Among the potential partners are Williams, which enjoyed a technical relationship with Porsche before selling its Hybrid Power division, and Red Bull, which has extensive connections with Porsche's parent company the Volkswagen Group.

McLaren has a strong history with Porsche through the TAG turbo collaboration of 1983-87, but they are now competitors in the road car market.

[radosav]

Don't know why some people think that only Alonso is pushing for Renault engine.
Maybe Prodromu is tired of making possibly great cars powered by useless engine?

[JonoNic]

Don't know why some people think that only Alonso is pushing for Renault engine.
Maybe Prodromu is tired of making possibly great cars powered by useless engine?

Maybe

[Phil]

I wish it was known how many tenths McLaren is gaining due to the Honda engine. Surely, the engine, with all its flaws, has its benefits too - benefits they will not be able to enjoy when using a customer supplied engine by Renault.

One of the significant advantages Ferrari and Mercedes both hold over using their own engines must be superior and intimate knowledge of their PU. What are the limits, how much can it be pushed, where are the most intimate strengths etc. This carry overs to better engine mappings or ERS modes that can be used. I.e. one of the apparent advantages of the Mercedes PU (over the Ferrari one) at Spa was that Mercedes was able to use a special mode that allowed their drivers to use all the ERS energy from Eau Rouge on, whereas the more "efficient" way to do it would be to spread the available energy over the entire lap to maximise the lap time.

I'd assume this is possible due to the works-engine going the extra mile to give their own car the biggest advantage and take full potential of it. There must be other advantages too: Perfect harmony between fuels and oils used that are linked to better engine maps. Knowing the limits of the package is advantageous because it means the team knows how much cooling is required, can optimise the packaging and that surely has an impact on the aero and weight distribution.

Now, it's clear the Honda package is not competitive enough when you consider the entire package. That much is apparent. I'm just trying to point out that the engine, despite all its flaws and difficulties, has it's distinct advantages too. Simply sticking a "mass product" in form of a Renault engine into the back of a McLaren will not work. There will be different compromises, different requirements, different trade-offs. Some of these compromises will probably mean that the aero advantage McLaren has been building their car around will no longer be possible. While they may be able to get a sufficient amount of potential running a Renault engine, the question remains how much more could the Renault team extract once their own works-team starts becoming more competitive. At the moment, this might not be apparent, but the better the works-team becomes, the more I would expect them to find key performance by going more specialised in the areas of the engine that only the works team can extract.

Will it be worth it in the end?

[McMika98]

Really don't understand why people rave about Prodromu. Granted he is a clear expert with years of experience but cant help but feel he is a one trick pony. The whole high rake, high down force setup was all good in the blown diffuser era but it was one of many tricks that Red Bull had. Even then they struggled to overtake a car 2 seconds slower once they were behind with evenly matched engines. In a era of increased drag from tyres, differential engine performance and more dirty air, the insistence on following the similar principle is like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Just look at where Redbull have progressed in their aero philosophy after realising the engine deficiency. It was amazing to see it sail past the Ferrari with less power which was impossible in their heyday with Peter's aero.

Also don't have high opinions on Matt Morris. Gets all the credit for that one year when Sauber was decent when in fact it was James Key's philosophy on developing well balanced car with no fancy aero that allowed the drivers to push without worrying about tyres. whilst the car this year looks to be well rounded it is very much like the Renaults.

Anyways all will be revealed next year if they are really what people make out to. I hope for their sake they deliver.

[diffuser]

Really don't understand why people rave about Prodromu. Granted he is a clear expert with years of experience but cant help but feel he is a one trick pony. The whole high rake, high down force setup was all good in the blown diffuser era but it was one of many tricks that Red Bull had. Even then they struggled to overtake a car 2 seconds slower once they were behind with evenly matched engines. In a era of increased drag from tyres, differential engine performance and more dirty air, the insistence on following the similar principle is like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Just look at where Redbull have progressed in their aero philosophy after realising the engine deficiency. It was amazing to see it sail past the Ferrari with less power which was impossible in their heyday with Peter's aero.

Also don't have high opinions on Matt Morris. Gets all the credit for that one year when Sauber was decent when in fact it was James Key's philosophy on developing well balanced car with no fancy aero that allowed the drivers to push without worrying about tyres. whilst the car this year looks to be well rounded it is very much like the Renaults.

Anyways all will be revealed next year if they are really what people make out to. I hope for their sake they deliver.

Blown diffuser has nothing to do with rake. Yes it helped seal the rear tires and diffuser but it can be done without it. The high rake is to get you closer to the ground in the front so it increases downforce with that. The car squats on straights shedding down force. Ordinarily a team would use around 1500lb springs to maintain aero stability, whilst he'd argue that the RB12 is using around 600lb.

This means that it can achieve the optimum rake through the corners but once on a straight, the downforce being generated continues to pull the rear of the car down toward the ground, changing the car's attitude and, with it, the loaded wing elements. This reduces the downforce and drag it generate, boosting top speed.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/anal ... te-826626/

[ZakB]

Seriously people, is it so hard to understand the concept of damage mitigation ?!

- Yes we all wished at some point that Honda finally had a breaktrough with their PU.
- Yes it´s better to have a works deal anytime before a customer deal.
- Yes Mclaren wants championships and not just random wins/podiums

...And the list can go on and on. But you know what guys, that ship has sailed!

That´s what your crystal ball said?

Or you´ve some insights from Honda, have seen the PU, the engineers, etc. and know their work is useless and they will never solve their problems, not in this, next or 2019 seasons?


Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes, all the dominant teams in past decade/s, actually needed 3-4 seasons before succeding. Assuming they won´t succed because they didn´t in 3th season, when they were severly restricted by token in two thirds of that period is so absurd... it´s pure fanboyism... "I don´t like them, I´m bored, get rid of them"

If Ferrari, Red Bull and Mercedes needed 3-4 seasons to succed without restrictions, I think 4-5 seasons is the least we should concede to McHonda.

But you need some perspective to be that patient

We haven't seen anyone getting on the level of Mercedes, but you expect that Honda will create something that is better than them in three years time? You're calling others a fanboy, but I would call you delusional. McLaren just want to perform and not wait until Honda get's their act together. Imagine how the team must feel about racing at the back for three years. If they wouldn't have shown enormous progress, McLaren wouldn't even consider leaving them. They know Honda for their empty promises.

Really don't understand why people rave about Prodromu. Granted he is a clear expert with years of experience but cant help but feel he is a one trick pony. The whole high rake, high down force setup was all good in the blown diffuser era but it was one of many tricks that Red Bull had. Even then they struggled to overtake a car 2 seconds slower once they were behind with evenly matched engines. In a era of increased drag from tyres, differential engine performance and more dirty air, the insistence on following the similar principle is like bringing a knife to a gunfight.
Just look at where Redbull have progressed in their aero philosophy after realising the engine deficiency. It was amazing to see it sail past the Ferrari with less power which was impossible in their heyday with Peter's aero.

Also don't have high opinions on Matt Morris. Gets all the credit for that one year when Sauber was decent when in fact it was James Key's philosophy on developing well balanced car with no fancy aero that allowed the drivers to push without worrying about tyres. whilst the car this year looks to be well rounded it is very much like the Renaults.

Anyways all will be revealed next year if they are really what people make out to. I hope for their sake they deliver.

It's because of DRS and the fact the Renault actually has power. According to the BBC they are only 15-20BHP down on Mercedes in race trim, while Honda is 80BHP on customer Mercedes.

[mclaren111]

The first Guy's Name is Illien, not Illmor. The Second Guy's Name is Boullier, not Boulliet. Just sayin....

Noted sir Thunders!

Yes it is Mario Illien Sir Thunders !!