Renault Sport Racing and McLaren Racing are pleased to announce they have agreed an engine supply partnership for the 2018, 2019 and 2020 seasons. The deal will see Renault Sport Racing supply McLaren with Formula 1 power units, while also establishing a close working relationship with McLaren’s engineers and technicians.
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This whole thing has become such a mess that i`m now leaning [and i hate to say it] towards the side that hopes Mclaren divorces Honda and then the Honda engine comes good!
We have seen this weekend with the Renault engine how it is very difficult to make certain parts of these PU`s reliable (when they have to perfrom to such a high level). How many Renault PU parts are being replaced/failing this weekend?
Also i`m sure i read somewhere that Renault are going for a radicalish change in PU design for next year. What makes anyone certain that they aren`t going to go through exactly the same reliability problems that Honda seem to be going through. Why would having a Renauly engine suddenly make them podium contenders, you`d still probably have Merc and Ferrari above them, they would basically be battling Red-Bull, FI, Williams and potentially Renault themselves for best of the rest.
Also how would they be able to keep Alonso if as reported Honda pay most of his wages. They would also lose any extra money Honda put into the team and we all know the McLaren isn`t exactly overflowing with sponsor logos nowadays!
There is no magic bullet available (imo)...
Renault said 2018 PU upgrade will be more conservative compare to 2017, as global design is now frozen and supply chain relationship being put under control. Renault said performance of 2017 is puzzled with reliability (part of them due to new elements and mixability issue, to avoid penalities), and probably some SW control to be tuned due to some bad correlation with track operation. So, their is still some potential to release for 2017 PU, with better component mix and SW update, and another power boost is expected for 2018 version. This version is under heavy test on dyno for months at viry, because they want to master reliabilty, and the next version is also on test. I don't know if they will close completly the gap with merco and ferrari PU, but renault is improving , an defintely not in the same situationy as Honda.
Another comment on reliability issues, I think at least half of verstappen issues are either bound to RBR (gearbox, etc) or sensor defect (which I think also depends a lot on chassin 's implementation, let's think about airflow, or temperature, vibration, etc), or PU unnecessary going into self protection mode (without failure). So even if reliability is not at expected level, it is not as bad as people says...
The way i see it is, If they go to Renault and it turns out that renault some how made the best PU for 2018,
Red bull will win the title and face a challenge from Mercedes Ferrari and Renault works teams. Mclaren won't fight for the title, 2013 and 2014 back this up.
If Honda some how makes the best PU , Mclaren will win the title.
So if its a title they want, they gotta stick with Honda for all the reasons they left Mercedes.
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Another comment on reliability issues, I think at least half of verstappen issues are either bound to RBR (gearbox, etc) or sensor defect (which I think also depends a lot on chassin 's implementation, let's think about airflow, or temperature, vibration, etc), or PU unnecessary going into self protection mode (without failure). So even if reliability is not at expected level, it is not as bad as people says...
Not sure why you quoted yourself quoting me, but anyway this is an exert of something knocking about. How true it is i have no idea..Bolded the phrase that to me is interesting and what made me think there was going to be some sort of architecture change.
I hope it`s powerful + reliable stright off the bat and i`m sure much of this years work will help in that regard.
Renault won't be bringing a major upgrade to its power unit until next year according to managing director Cyril Abiteboul, contrasting claims made by Red Bull team principal Christian Horner.
Renault this year debuted a new concept it said would provide major development opportunities, but Abiteboul has said that will be delivered in minor improvements on a race-by-race basis and there would be no 'big' upgrade until 2018.
That goes against what Horner recently said, with the Renault customer team boss suggesting a big perfomance boost originally expected for the Canadian Grand Prix would now come in Azerbaijan.
That won't be happening, Abiteboul confirmed to the official Formula 1 website: "It was Red Bull who said that there would be an upgrade [in Baku], he said.
"There are upgrades permanently - every single race we are making some small improvements.
“Last year we created a huge expectation and we came with an upgrade that had a big impact. But we can’t repeat that every year.
“Now it is all about constant improvements which overall will make a difference - but there is no magic bullet. Every race the engine will become more and more reliable with the program on the dyno progressing.
"Frankly the next big upgrade will be next year. Then we will have a completely new concept. That will make a difference - but as I said 2018."
Honestly think McLaren becoming a Renault customer is about as embarrassing as it gets.
Small performance increase, huge reliability risk, no likelihood of race wins.
All I can think is that they're looking to pinch a podium or two for marketing reasons until the engine regs change in a couple of years.
Are you insane? Alonso and Riciardo started on the same place on the grid.
Renault much better engine and even better next year.
Honda? Probably another step back just like in early 2016 and 2017.
Red Bull are way in front of Mclaren indeed. But thats not all down to the PU. Mclaren won't beat red bull with equal engines.
Mclaren chassis is not very far from RB's, and next year maybe not at all.
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I'd have much more sympathy for McLaren if they owned up to their size zero fiasco. I just can't feel sorry for them while Boullier blatantly denies they had anything to do with it. Again, two years wasted because Honda now has to start from scratch.
At this point I'd rather see them split because McLaren deserves no gain from this partnership, whether it be in terms of finances or results.
McLaren, quick to take credit, even quicker to push blame aside.
“Having the engine, its ancillaries and the ERS impede on the car’s aerodynamic performance was simply not an option,” said McLaren racing director Eric Boullier. “The chassis has been designed to wrap up so compactly at the rear that we had to include all elements into a tight package with nothing sticking out. In order to achieve this, Honda actually had to make several attempts and come up with three versions of the power unit because the initial two did not meet the chassis/aero technical specifications. It took them a lot of effort.”
Ok, I am french, so perhaps lacking some accuracy in vocabulary. Overall architecture / design of PU is good, after big 2017 big rework.. But there were so many changes, that they have reliabilities issues. They spent a lot of time to fix that, I think they developped testing procedures and SW dvpt to better control and protect PU. This is why they postponed a big upgrade (the one RBR is asking for), but Cyril Abitboul said they will not release it this year. But rather, will continue to unleash so power due to better optimization of 2017 version (because some potential is still not exploited today). So we have 2 versions maturing for 2018, the one that was delayed, this year, well advanced in testing, benefiting for several month of exposure now in dynos, and a new step (originally for 2018 season start, already in testing stage, but more experimental than the first one). These 2 new versionsare ICE update (understand combusito chamber, injection imprvement), but the rest of architecture is now quite stable. So overall, there is less changes compare to 2017, especially with new supplied elments. I think first version, considering removal of oil burning trick, is on par or very close to ferrari and merco PU. The second is supposed to be more powerfull, but of course, ferrari and merco are also improving, so don't know if renault will have the best engine in 2018, or not. But renault plan is too have best engine in in 2018 or 2019, and fight for WCC title in 2020. My understanding is that they have several months of delay on their original plans, but still can manage it. Honda is far from this outcome, today they deliver continuous improvement tat are still unable to finish one race, they may have some power, but just for couple of hundrer kilometers, we can't compare situations, next year engine reliability constraint will be more severe...
Honda will come good. They have been going through a lot of restructuring and long overdue uprades of everything right down the line from road cars to metallurgy. It was a bad start to F1 no denying that, but if a deal can be done to supply 2 teams then 3 later on, development will speed up a lot.
I'm starting to think Ron Dennis was mentally ill the way things went on with this Honda deal. Probably some of the worst decisions in high level F1 ever made.
Sorry, but how can people still can say Honda will come good? Just look at the MGU-K, that problem still isn't fixed. I also wished the partnership would work out, but there haven't been any signs that it will happen. Don't forget there are only three years left. McLaren simply wants to perform and they no longer have in faith in Honda. They know all the ins and outs, and saying goodbye to all that money shows how dire the situation actually is.
When you take into consideration the bad start they had e.g bad engine concept, one should understand why they are currently so far behind.
Add to that the restructuring and updating they are going through then it adds up to not being able to perform as well as Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault. No other big manufacturer even wants to be in F1 so credit to Honda for trying, and they are trying.
I'm quite sure that if there were some other engine manufacturers in F1 e.g from Cosworth to VW, that the Honda would still be yhe worst. That's how far behind they are.
These past 2 1/2 seasons are pretty much classed as short term in the whole scheme of things. It's depressing as a fan but remember there's 3 or 4 years of this engine formula to get it right, then who knows what will happen after that.
Personally my prediction after the first official winter test was that McLaren Honda wouldn't get a podium for 5 years. The hadn't done enough beforehand to really test the engine e.g a test mule and several different engine architecture/philosophies. They should have been running around Suzuka 24/7, they have the money so that wouldn't be an issue.
I'd stick with Honda, just force the works status to remain exclusive.
They have taken the pain, now they need to wait for the reward.
Alonso is amazing, but not irreplaceable.
Agreed. He's one of the top talents that will bring those extra tenths but there is a lot of talent in the series.
I'm really hoping Honda can show some strong improvements before year end and McLaren sticks with them. I fear the Renault deal might be inevitable though and that would be disappointing. I really want to see the current partnership play out for success.
I'd have much more sympathy for McLaren if they owned up to their size zero fiasco. I just can't feel sorry for them while Boullier blatantly denies they had anything to do with it. Again, two years wasted because Honda now has to start from scratch.
At this point I'd rather see them split because McLaren deserves no gain from this partnership, whether it be in terms of finances or results.
McLaren, quick to take credit, even quicker to push blame aside.
“Having the engine, its ancillaries and the ERS impede on the car’s aerodynamic performance was simply not an option,” said McLaren racing director Eric Boullier. “The chassis has been designed to wrap up so compactly at the rear that we had to include all elements into a tight package with nothing sticking out. In order to achieve this, Honda actually had to make several attempts and come up with three versions of the power unit because the initial two did not meet the chassis/aero technical specifications. It took them a lot of effort.”
Presumably Honda agreed to McLarens demands and gave sufficient assurances that they would be competitive with such a concept.
If Honda had said, "yes we can make a smaller PU, but it would come at the cost of 10% in performance when compared to the 2014 Merc PU" which McLaren would have had as a benchmark, do you think McLaren would have agreed?
For me as a McLaren fan, I want to see them win races. While I don't see them win a race this season with Honda, I don't see McLaren winning a race next year with Renault. Even with the best engine, I don't think McLaren will be able to beat Red Bull.
Honda needs to up its game and that would be the best opportunity for McLaren to be in the fight. McLaren finishing 4th in the championship or 8th makes No difference to me. Want them to win the championship and I can't see that happening with Renault, Mercedes or Ferrari.
If Financial loss is the issue, I would say Honda is more than compensating for it by offering 100mn in sponsorship plus free engines. After moving to Renault, I don't see them getting free engines or signing up major sponsors to cover the hole. Time to put pressure on both FIA and Honda to get certain exceptions so that Honda can catch up soon
For me as a McLaren fan, I want to see them win races. While I don't see them win a race this season with Honda, I don't see McLaren winning a race next year with Renault. Even with the best engine, I don't think McLaren will be able to beat Red Bull.
Honda needs to up its game and that would be the best opportunity for McLaren to be in the fight. McLaren finishing 4th in the championship or 8th makes No difference to me. Want them to win the championship and I can't see that happening with Renault, Mercedes or Ferrari.
If Financial loss is the issue, I would say Honda is more than compensating for it by offering 100mn in sponsorship plus free engines. After moving to Renault, I don't see them getting free engines or signing up major sponsors to cover the hole. Time to put pressure on both FIA and Honda to get certain exceptions so that Honda can catch up soon
Sounds like a proper McLaren fan! =D>
For me, personally, I'm a person who follows drivers, not teams. So, I keep changing camps. But there is an innate respect for a 'team fan' and specially for Ferrari, McLaren and Williams fans. In general, my fav drivers have been in a Ferrari and the win is always sweeter when it comes in a fight against these two. McLaren deserve to be at the front.
What I will also say is that Red Bull and Mercedes have truly come on as F1 teams and while I'm a bit suspicious about Mercedes length of stay in the sport, Red Bull has definitely in my eyes sealed itself as a proper racing team. I genuinely loathe the people who say they just want to sell cans.
Time for McLaren-Honda to ascend to the top again!
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If Honda had said, "yes we can make a smaller PU, but it would come at the cost of 10% in performance when compared to the 2014 Merc PU" which McLaren would have had as a benchmark, do you think McLaren would have agreed?
IF, IF.... it doesn't matter.
McLaren wanted Honda to join in prematurely and also pushed/agreed to the "size zero" concept. McLaren wanted to sign a contract that ties them in as "in sickness and in health" (obviously). So it is time for McLaren and the fans to swallow that pill.
Honda wanted to enter F1 with McLaren, Honda agreed to the McLaren terms, Honda underestimated the F1 engine complexity and f**ed up the engine. So Honda and the fans (including me) have to accept that side of the coin.
That means taking responsibility for your own actions. And McLaren is clearly lacking in this department!
I am a bit sick and tired of these blame games and BS on the splitting/stay together, that I don't care anymore if they split - I actually believe it would be better for Honda. However, being a Senna fan and having enjoyed the supremacy of the McLaren Honda era, even though I am a Honda fan I still see the "McLaren Honda" brand being bigger than McLaren or Honda brand in F1.
Honda has increased the development rate. Almost every race for past 6 races there is a new iteration of the engine. The engine is getting better regarding power - that was visible from the VAN's race. MGU-K problems apart it is a good step (hope they solve that issue for next race). Again I am waiting for the spec 4 to judge the potential for the next year.
McLaren switching to Renault will be (to me) a "stupid" step to take but as McLaren is laying its own path is for the McLaren Team to walk that path.
can't see ALO sticking with Mclaren with no gigantic wages whats the logic for a 36 yo to stay in a midfield team with Renault with small wage?!!
if iam in his shoes i'd follow the money he is in a retirement phase of age.
can't see ALO sticking with Mclaren with no gigantic wages whats the logic for a 36 yo to stay in a midfield team with Renault with small wage?!!
if iam in his shoes i'd follow the money he is in a retirement phase of age.
McLaren will move to Renault, Alonso will stay with McLaren. The nightmare is almost over.
I wish someone could tell me why they expect Honda to overtake Renault, Mercedes and Ferrari. It's all based on thin air, because they are a big company. They completely underestimated the project and they even admitted that they underestimated this new concept, after two years of failing. I find it incredible how people still support these amateurs.
