2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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Jolle
Jolle
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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rifrafs2kees wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 18:02
DChemTech wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 15:47
dans79 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 15:42



Highly unlikely, Max wanted to force Lewis up the inside so he had a compromised and slower line through the turn. Max wouldd have gone around outside at maximum speed and thus had a better line and corner exit velocity.
With the overspeed Lewis would have had if he continued on at 300 kph, while Max slowed down to maybe 150 - 200 kph, I don't think that would have worked. Max would need to better exit and DRS to not lose sight of Hamilton - no way he'd be able to overtake him right after.
Not well thought out at all. You do realize it might've been suicidal to barrel down at slowing competitor without blue flags or some communication as to why said competitor has slowed down in the MIDDLE of a track with no runoff? Come on, you can do better.

Verstappen's dubious pretense of relinquishing the position started this chain reaction. Any attempt to lay blame with Hamilton is a stretch.
A competitor who ran you off track a couple of times already (and could well have a technical problem)

JamesS
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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MattWellsyWells wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 16:59
This is the 19th season of Formula One that I've followed and I think that is probably the worst race I've watched. Yeah, it had drama, controversy, incident and accident but the driving standards were poor and the race direction seemed to be in total chaos.

I rate Verstappen highly, I think he's been amazing for most of the year and is clearly extremely quick. I admire the fact he doesn't want to give up and that he wants to race hard but he often pushes it too far. He is complaining about F1 turning in to a sport that is only about penalties but the penalties only happen because he keeps gaining or retaining positions by going off track which is correctly outside of the rules. Either these are mistakes or deliberate. If a mistake then hold your hands up and give the place back or, if its deliberate, then you deserve a penalty. I wouldn't be so bothered about it if he (or his team) was willing to accept responsibility.

For the brake checking incident I feel like both are partly to blame. At the time I couldn't understand why Hamilton didn't just drive straight past but watching the replays I can see why he didn't. I don't think it was very obvious to start with what Verstappen was doing as it was just a bit of a lift so Hamilton decided he didn't want to overtake just before the DRS line so he also lifted to stay behind. But then Verstappen kept slowing down (probably correctly) but by that point Hamilton had sort of committed to staying behind but they ended up at a snails pace and crashing into each other which made both look stupid in my opinion.

Clearly the stewards concluded Verstappen was mostly to blame from the telemetry etc. How significant is 69 bar in terms of brake pressure? How does that relate to normal braking for a corner?

Red flags seem to be much more common in races at the moment. Is this because race control are being more cautious about things? Is it because of the TecPro barriers and how they absorb impacts?

I do think the red flag rules need looking at, especially if stoppages are going to stay frequent. They seem to throw up too many random events and changes to the order. Surely a red flag should just be a pause to the race where nothing changes. I know the rules are the same for everyone and one driver might get lucky this race with it but unlucky the next race. But F1 shouldn't be about luck and random events. Even having standing restarts seems a bit weird because of the jeopardy they present. Again, I know it is the same for everyone and standing starts are a skill that needs to be mastered but still.

Also, wasn't there a thing about Sprint weekends where a certain team had to change their clutches because they aren't designed for more than one standing start? How can they be fine with three of them in one afternoon?
Race control was very chaotic, shambolic to be honest.

The 1st red flag just seemed to be totally invented for drama, the barrier was 4 layers deep, it looked fine, there was talk of needing a crane to replace a piece of barrier. Funny enough no camera footage emerged of this happening, I bet it didn't happen.

They brought out VSCs for bits of debris off the racing line - This only benefited Max.

Random events are part of the sport - A slow stop, sticky wheel nut, in the past refueling problems, lucky pit stop under a SC. However where possible they do need to be eliminated because they can have a huge impact on the outcome and ultimately that isn't racing, it's blind luck. Changing tyres during a red flag just seems unfair - Race should resume under same conditions - Exception being able to repair damage, but I can see the argument against that also.

I like standing restarts in general, but you have a very high risk of another incident, where on certain tracks it is a guaranteed safety car at least, disrupting the racing - Monaco, Baku, Singapore, Saudi for example. Perhaps "street circuits" shouldn't have standing restarts.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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My 'fear' if that is the correct use of the word is that George is somewhat hot-headed compared to Hamilton and Bottas, so next year it could easily become a two way 'thing'.
this could either leave the wat completely clear for Hamilton to walk in, or or escalate into a full scale inter team war. The stewards and director have to stamp down now and let them know that crossing the line even by a little is not acceptable (on both teams)

Edit. One of the units on the barrier had been punctured and does not work in that condition, so had to be changed.
(Teds note book i think)
Last edited by Big Tea on 06 Dec 2021, 18:17, edited 1 time in total.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

DChemTech
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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rifrafs2kees wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 18:02
DChemTech wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 15:47
dans79 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 15:42



Highly unlikely, Max wanted to force Lewis up the inside so he had a compromised and slower line through the turn. Max wouldd have gone around outside at maximum speed and thus had a better line and corner exit velocity.
With the overspeed Lewis would have had if he continued on at 300 kph, while Max slowed down to maybe 150 - 200 kph, I don't think that would have worked. Max would need to better exit and DRS to not lose sight of Hamilton - no way he'd be able to overtake him right after.
Not well thought out at all. You do realize it might've been suicidal to barrel down at slowing competitor without blue flags or some communication as to why said competitor has slowed down in the MIDDLE of a track with no runoff? Come on, you can do better.

Verstappen's dubious pretense of relinquishing the position started this chain reaction. Any attempt to lay blame with Hamilton is a stretch.
What would you expect Max to do - turn into Hamilton as he's overtaking? If he wants an instant DSQ for the entire season, that would be a rather effective way.
Yes, Max tried to set up giving up position such that he would have least harm from it. But to think he'd deliberately crash during such a moment is completely absurd. There's a difference between aggressive driving and plain stupidity.

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Just Passing By
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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I would like to ask something to the people who are defending Max's moves in Brazil and in the last race. Are you aware that if such a race becomes the standard, soon everyone will drive like that? So that Max himself could become a victim of a "total" approach to racing, and in some cases without a chance for the title because of some "You Shall Not Pass" kid? Do you want to watch such an F1? I don't ... After this race, all the previous rivalries and dirty moves of some drivers become insignificant.In some weird way, Max could really mark a new era in F1 ... if he's allowed to.

rifrafs2kees
rifrafs2kees
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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fourmula1 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 16:45
NathanOlder wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 15:32
Bill wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 15:03
if you guys think lewis is all great and wonderful why did he resort to crashing Max in silverstone .the irony is lost in some of you is that we have these artifacial champiship because lewis stated with cheating when he took Max out.it should have been long over in qatar.were was lewis when vettel distroyed him for 4 straight years it took 2 secound merc to safe his behind
#-o #-o #-o #-o #-o Why this s##t yet again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you are on the inside ffs, then its your corner, remember what Horner said about Barcelona, Imola, Brazil and not Saudi ???

It's sickening that some people's view on some of these incidents are so can change depending on which driver is doing what. Lewis was fully alongside, on the inside, its his corner, as long as he stays on track (which he DID) then he can take what ever line he wants. Thats why Barcelona, Imola & Brazil (turn1 with Bottas) there is no penalty for Max.
lol.

I've lurked this forum for many years and am surprised how un-technical it is sometimes.

Bottom line is the FIA/F1 have let the racing get out of hand for far too long. In so many other series it is black and white. The moves we've seen all year would result in instant penalties.

The real result and problem of all this is that they are robbing us of good racing. If you force them to stay within the lines through harsh penalties & physical barriers then we will see drivers go through these chicanes side by side, exit side by side, and fight into the next complex of corners. If you are side by side in the braking zone it is no ones corner. The person on the inside shouldn't be entitled to drive the outside person off track. And if you are on the outside you aren't entitled to the apex.

Every move is all or nothing, we don't even get to see them race. Force them to stay between the lines and we will get so much more action!!!!
=D>

jz11
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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ema00 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 17:25
jz11 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 12:41
to all the "brake testing" people out there, have a look at this video before it is blocked:
youtube .com/watch?v=wmGZWiPa2R8

that is NOT what brake testing looks like, I can tell you that much, that is erratic driving at best and probably the reason he actually did get the penalty, (for 2nd or 3rd time I'm saying this) but the big reason for all this was that Masi informed RB first and only then Merc, what he should have done was to tell the team behind FIRST and only then instruct the leading team, and this all would have been avoided
Passing from 154 to 108 isn't brake testing? Are you serious?
could you please write down your definition of brake testing, the circumstances when it used please?

I'll then explain what I consider to be brake testing, because without clear definition this discussion is not possible

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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JamesS wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 18:12
MattWellsyWells wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 16:59
This is the 19th season of Formula One that I've followed and I think that is probably the worst race I've watched. Yeah, it had drama, controversy, incident and accident but the driving standards were poor and the race direction seemed to be in total chaos.

I rate Verstappen highly, I think he's been amazing for most of the year and is clearly extremely quick. I admire the fact he doesn't want to give up and that he wants to race hard but he often pushes it too far. He is complaining about F1 turning in to a sport that is only about penalties but the penalties only happen because he keeps gaining or retaining positions by going off track which is correctly outside of the rules. Either these are mistakes or deliberate. If a mistake then hold your hands up and give the place back or, if its deliberate, then you deserve a penalty. I wouldn't be so bothered about it if he (or his team) was willing to accept responsibility.

For the brake checking incident I feel like both are partly to blame. At the time I couldn't understand why Hamilton didn't just drive straight past but watching the replays I can see why he didn't. I don't think it was very obvious to start with what Verstappen was doing as it was just a bit of a lift so Hamilton decided he didn't want to overtake just before the DRS line so he also lifted to stay behind. But then Verstappen kept slowing down (probably correctly) but by that point Hamilton had sort of committed to staying behind but they ended up at a snails pace and crashing into each other which made both look stupid in my opinion.

Clearly the stewards concluded Verstappen was mostly to blame from the telemetry etc. How significant is 69 bar in terms of brake pressure? How does that relate to normal braking for a corner?

Red flags seem to be much more common in races at the moment. Is this because race control are being more cautious about things? Is it because of the TecPro barriers and how they absorb impacts?

I do think the red flag rules need looking at, especially if stoppages are going to stay frequent. They seem to throw up too many random events and changes to the order. Surely a red flag should just be a pause to the race where nothing changes. I know the rules are the same for everyone and one driver might get lucky this race with it but unlucky the next race. But F1 shouldn't be about luck and random events. Even having standing restarts seems a bit weird because of the jeopardy they present. Again, I know it is the same for everyone and standing starts are a skill that needs to be mastered but still.

Also, wasn't there a thing about Sprint weekends where a certain team had to change their clutches because they aren't designed for more than one standing start? How can they be fine with three of them in one afternoon?
Race control was very chaotic, shambolic to be honest.

The 1st red flag just seemed to be totally invented for drama, the barrier was 4 layers deep, it looked fine, there was talk of needing a crane to replace a piece of barrier. Funny enough no camera footage emerged of this happening, I bet it didn't happen.

They brought out VSCs for bits of debris off the racing line - This only benefited Max.

Random events are part of the sport - A slow stop, sticky wheel nut, in the past refueling problems, lucky pit stop under a SC. However where possible they do need to be eliminated because they can have a huge impact on the outcome and ultimately that isn't racing, it's blind luck. Changing tyres during a red flag just seems unfair - Race should resume under same conditions - Exception being able to repair damage, but I can see the argument against that also.

I like standing restarts in general, but you have a very high risk of another incident, where on certain tracks it is a guaranteed safety car at least, disrupting the racing - Monaco, Baku, Singapore, Saudi for example. Perhaps "street circuits" shouldn't have standing restarts.
A lot looks very random or bad luck. Not all are. For instance, Bottas’ wheel nut, was a fault of the mechanic, trying to ace a fast pitstop (the gun spun before it was on the nut). As for these red flags, safety cars, etc, they are part of the game and always have a different impact on different drivers. It’s all about taking risks at the right moment, taking chances and a tad of luck. RedBull took a gamble with the safetycar and it paid off. Sport is about taking these kinds of risks.
What if there wouldn’t be a red flag? Verstappen would have been in real trouble and been outside the points when he did have to make his pitstop.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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ema00 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 17:25
jz11 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 12:41
to all the "brake testing" people out there, have a look at this video before it is blocked:


that is NOT what brake testing looks like, I can tell you that much, that is erratic driving at best and probably the reason he actually did get the penalty, (for 2nd or 3rd time I'm saying this) but the big reason for all this was that Masi informed RB first and only then Merc, what he should have done was to tell the team behind FIRST and only then instruct the leading team, and this all would have been avoided
Passing from 154 to 108 isn't brake testing? Are you serious?
Exactly- slow from 54-8 suddenly in a road car in a matter of moments and feel the difference from that. It's almost an emergency stop.

Justthatek
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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F1NAC wrote:
proteus wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 16:47
El Scorchio wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 16:36
Unfortunately after yesterday I don't have any faith that there won't be (or at least there won't be an attempt at) a championship deciding collision. It really saddens me.
If behind, Hamilton is going to have to hope that his car has enough grunt to make a very clean pass with a very wide berth on that long straight. Trying to overtake at any corner looks like a completely pointless exercise, given what we've witnessed in Saudi and Brazil.
In all honesty what did you expect? Mercedes is so much quicker that Max is forced into diving manouvres and "do or die" moves. Lewis got .3 to.5 advantage on the straight without DRS. Snipped front wing, fully stressed harder tyres from following and still able to smash fastest laps one after another towards the end. It is not in Max blood to stand down and move over. He has gone down fighting - questionable at times, but nothing we havent seen before (Schumacher - Hill, Senna - Prost, etc.) The biggest difference between Lewis and Max is that with Max you know he wont budge, while Lewis will be looking you in your eyes, smile at you and tapping you on the shoulder and stab you in the back. Thats why i stopped cheering for him after his Mclaren career. One thing is certain - Max managed to force Lewis into giving his all. Something he wasnt used to do for quite a long time.
What about other instances? Austria 2019? Baku 2018? etc... Guy is unable to race wheel to wheel. I mean.. He is but he is not even in top class in that regard..

He is not forced to do anything. He is there to race. By the book!

His intentions are clear after this race. IF he has the chance to put you out if it means championship or win the race, he will do that. And he has full support of his team. Team that was very vocal when karma struck him back at Silverstone. But whenever he comes unscathed it is "Let them race, hard racing blah blah blah". That has to stop.
And Spa 2016 along the kemmel straight with Kimi

rogazilla
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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ema00 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 17:25
jz11 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 12:41
...
that is NOT what brake testing looks like, I can tell you that much, that is erratic driving at best and probably the reason he actually did get the penalty, (for 2nd or 3rd time I'm saying this) but the big reason for all this was that Masi informed RB first and only then Merc, what he should have done was to tell the team behind FIRST and only then instruct the leading team, and this all would have been avoided
Passing from 154 to 108 isn't brake testing? Are you serious?
Um we are not talking about regular brakes here...

rifrafs2kees
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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jumpingfish wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 17:43
8) I would glad to see Ham and Ver in the same team, no matter RB or Mercedes with equal treatment. Season with a hell flame is guaranteed. So sad it couldn't happen ever.
Not at Red Bull, maybe at Ferrari. Horner and co literally encouraged Lauda to poach Hamilton to weaken Mclaren and it didn't matter if Hamilton's became a casualty in their quest. Little did they know Merc. would blossom into a powerhouse.
All this Horner talk about the sport needing competition is hot air!

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henry
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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jz11 wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 16:53
henry wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 16:51
I think that if Hamilton had been informed that Verstappen was to give him the place back he would have behaved exactly the same. He would have known with more certainty what Verstappen’s plan was and he would still refuse to pass before the DRS detection line.
Who you'd then blame for the collision? Max for not handing that position on the silver platter with a deep deep bow? Or the one that fully expected what was in front of him and still managed to hit the car in front?
That’s a reasonable question. I don’t think the regulations are clear. IMO the collision was ultimately caused by Verstappen braking suddenly as he got close to the DRS detection line. Had he continued to slow more gradually the collision would probably have been avoided, Hamilton would have had DRS and who knows whether he would have risked entering a corner in close proximity to Verstappen.

In answer to your question if it played out in the same way I’d side with the stewards in placing the majority of the blame to Verstappen because his sudden braking was not necessary to permit Hamilton to pass.
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Phil
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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The problem with the collision and leading up to it, were the movements of Verstappen. He decelerated and while he was on the far right going into the fast left hander (T25/T26), as Lewis was closing, Verstappen started to move to the inside of the track. This isn't showing intention of wanting to let someone by - it's erratic movement. Adding to that, on a part of the track that is high speed, narrow and a left-hander (not a straight):

Verstappen is decelerating, on the far right:
Image

As Hamilton is closing the gap, Verstappen moves to the inside. With any big speed differential, it's a big accident waiting to happen if you keep going for the gap that is disappearing (Baku / Riccardo-Verstappen?):
Image

At this point, Hamilton has lost all his momentum after decelerating hard and is now behind Verstappen:
Image

As Verstappen decelerates further, Hamilton is directly behind him. There is very little room on the right, there's a small gap on the left:
Image

As Hamilton moves to the left, the only space that offers sufficient space and a gap with margin still directly behind Verstappen, Verstappen also moves to the inside and hits the brakes and they collide:
Image

If Verstappens intentions were genuine and sincere to give up the position, he would have done so;

1.) staying on the far right, no erratic movements to the inside
2.) at a better location than in a corner
3.) would NOT have hit the brakes while occupying the middle of the track while having your opponent in close approximation behind you
4.) then, once the contact occurs, to go full throttle and disappear in the distance

This to me shows very clear and beyond doubt intent of willingly causing a collision. A collision with potential damage to your opponent (front wings are among the most fragile parts on a F1 car).

Not only that, there was also precedent for the intent to willingly engage in driving that put Hamilton and himself at risk for damage/DNF - i.e. the 2nd standing start where he rejoined the track at an impossible angle and in a blocking maneuver instead of following the track and rejoining at the far end and a trajectory beneficial to everyone:
Image

Or Lap 37 when Hamilton passed him on the straight with DRS and he went in hot on the inside and straight off track. If Hamilton there had not avoided and backed out, they would have collided.

It's a real shame, because Verstappen is undoubtedly one of the very best F1 drivers out there, yet he is resorting to driving that is not necessary, reeks of desperation and very dirty. And to make matters worse - the insufficient penalty for what is considered to be one of the most serious offenses a driver can commit, is not sending a clear signal that such driving should not be allowed, is very dangerous and could end in a very very serious accident.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

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Phil wrote:
06 Dec 2021, 18:43
It's a real shame, because Verstappen is undoubtedly one of the very best F1 drivers out there, yet he is resorting to driving that is not necessary, reeks of desperation and very dirty.
Personally i think you need to quantify what you mean by good.

I think Max is very fast, and able to extract far more from the car than your average driver. However I think he is a bad driver overal, as throughout his career he has shown no remorse or concern about violating both official and unofficial rules of racing!
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